...and now for something completely different! (shahid cards!!)

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Posted By: runscott

The phrase "vintage baseball cards" can be found in this article, so it's legal - enjoy card collecting from an entirely different cultural perspective:


http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1022100131363&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

.....

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Posted By: runscott

the can of worms is once again open

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Posted By: petecld

What was wrong with what Julie said?

I think the article is pathetic. Should we all be proud that another generation of hatred has been inbreed into their society. There was huge outcry against collecting "True Crime" cards in this country. This is worse. Worshiping those who killed others. How sad.

Thank you Scott for your fine contribution to the board. I'm sure you'll be the first to find a printing "variation" on the BinLaden cards.

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Posted By: runscott

...

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Posted By: MW

I think the link to the article is in very poor taste (offensive to many) and I think it should be deleted.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

This is absolutely ridiculous. The article is about something that is utterly absurd, but it is news. I can't believe that there is anyone reading this board that is not aware that there is conflict in the Middle East and that it is atrocious. The fact that Arabs are collecting cards of their martyrs is just another ridiculous example of their extremism, which you should be noticing on the news everyday. If you two are so absorbed in your baseball cards that you have not noticed the events in the Middle East, then there is nothing I can say here that is going to enlighten either one of you.
Go ahead, get on your soapboxes.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Didn't know what to write after erasing my post over three times...

That story really hurts...

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Posted By: MW

Scott --

You wrote, "enjoy card collecting from an entirely different cultural perspective"

And then you published a link to an article that discusses the "martyrdom" and reverence for Middle Eastern terrorists. I can understand how you might think that is entertaining, but many Americans, particularly those affected by the events on September 11, would not be amused. THINK about what you are writing.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I agree. It's not a story that bears repeating here, or elsewhere.

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Posted By: scott

I had no intention of offending anyone. Yes, I watch the news, and yes, I read...constantly. I have made every reasonable effort to try and understand what goes on in the world around me - yes, even if it doesn't involve cardboard. The only reason I have access to articles like this is because I read, and those I associate with, other than people on this board, also read - and they pass what they read on to me. If it involves something distatestful, they do not ignore it, they try to understand it the best they can. In my reading today I found this example of ridiculous religious extremism and it had a reference to vintage cards, so I posted a link. When I originally read it, I thought, "it is sick the way these people raise their children to pass the hate on to future generations". Foolish me - I really did not think that anyone on this board would think that because I posted the article, that I supported the actions described in it. So crucify me - I'm naive.

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Posted By: petecld

Scott,

If you think that you are the only one aware of world you only fooling yourself. I am quite aware of world event and it is with that knowledge I came to the conclusion that theinformation the article presents are a sad commentary on human nature. I disappoints me that you read that article and came to the conclusion it's most important ramification was "enjoy card collecting from an entirely different cultural perspective".

For the record, my post was more about your reply to Julie's post. Her sentiments reflect mine - God, any God you prefer, help us ALL if society is coming down to this - and I'm curious to what you meant by Julie "opening that can of worms"?

Who opened the can of worms on this one?

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Posted By: scott

I did not find anything offensive with what Julie said. Julie has a knack for saying things that can be taken several ways. Think about it - God save the Jews??!!!?? I knew she did not mean it this way, but I also knew that someone who was thin-skinned might respond - thus "open a can of worms". My sense of humor is apparently lacking today - again, Pete, please hang me by my thumbs as appropriate punishment. Have you already forgotten the post about the guy who collected African-American baseball cards?

This is truly crazy.

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Posted By: scott

I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you. I will let your previous comments stand/fall on their own.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The whole 9-11 thing was very tradgic, but people need to lighten up.

I agree with Scott, read everything and form your own opinions but DON'T tell someone else what they should or should read. That is the whole basis that our country was founded on. And the scary thing is that the Republicans, supposed defenders of the Consitution are the first ones to try and strip of us of basic rights and what to tell us what we can and cannot read or should know. Just look at what John Ashcroft is doing. If that doesn't scare you, then Bin Laden and the boys should be the least of your worries.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

Well, after reading the article using my phrase about "shekels" is a little ironic but here goes anyway. Ya'll know I am Jewish but who cares, I am only pointing that out so folks know I am not racist against "me, or my kind", or anyone for that matter.........There is NO WAY this thread should be deleted IMO. Suggesting that is just crazy. This is America and Scott was not intending to offend anyone with bringing up the fact that a sad thing is going on in the world. It does relate to cards in a remote way albeit not vintage. I found the article interesting. It's a shame little children are being taught it is holy and noble to kill innocent people for any reason let alone religeon. I can not believe there is any God ANYWHERE that would want that. If it offends someone to read the article then so be it. The shine from my bald head probably offends some too....big deal Ignoring it won't make it go away and I would rather be informed than uninformed...but that's just me. I hate to see Pete and Scott go at it like that but I am sure it is meant in good spirit. I did not construe Scott's opening remark the same way Pete did. I thought he was just putting a spin on the sad situation. Maybe a little on the slippery side but not enough to roast him. I can see myself very easily saying the same thing and then thinking maybe I should have put it a different way...and then maybe not, da** it. It was a twist that a good journalist might like. It raises an irony about the whole thing by saying it the way he (Scott) did. I don't think he would make light of the situation in a normal conversation. IF anyone thinks that; you don't know him. And for the record I am a staunch REPUBLICAN but have some views that Democrats would be proud of (not many but some).....Whomever threw the political shoe in this fight needs to duck because I can throw pretty hard back at ya'.......well, I guess until someone lambastes me I can go for now.....best regards all and "Let's get ready to RUMBLE !!!!!!! "...better yet let's get back to vintage baseball cards

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Posted By: John Wojak

Leon, I agree with you - I found the article interesting and thank Scott for bringing it to my attention. Although I (especially as I am a New Yorker) am disgusted by the cards described in the article, I appreciated learning about them and would not like to see the link or this thread censored from the board. However, Scott, like Pete I interpreted your reply to Julie's "god help them both" remark as a criticism and simililarly wondered what you could have found to be offensive in her comment. I don't want to get into the politics of the middle east situation, but surely both sides could use some divine help (if for different reasons).

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

From Larry Miller's article on the Intifada.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/161yaihr.asp


"...Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death..."

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Posted By: petecld

"...again, Pete, please hang me by my thumbs as appropriate punishment." Bravo! Bravo!

Scott, can you skip the melo-dramatics and just focus on the topic? Your response style is starting to match. . .never mind. I recall what Julie said and I found nothing offensive by what she said. Obviously you did take offense and have all the right to do so. It's just unfortunate that since Julie's response this time mentioned a people's ethnic background you decided this comment was somehow a continuation of, or bolstered her previous comment and YOU chose to make her comment "another can of worms."

Where does anyone say you supported what was being reported in the article? Did you really think you were going to introduce this topic, reply to another's post, and NOT get feedback both for and against? Everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean what you said is any less valueable and the whole, "Elliot, just delete my posts" thing is kinda immature. C'mon, the game isn't going your way so you want to take your ball and go home. Unfortunate to say the very least.

I will say that your first line of the original post does seem a bit light hearted considering the seriousness of the article. That is my opinion and maybe I just took the article more seriously then you did. Doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.

I haven't said the post should be deleted and in no way do I feel the post should be deleted. Scott, I would hope that in the future you will continue to bring to the board more articles you deem fitting but don't take it so personally when people disagree with you.

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Posted By: petecld

Scott, I am sorry I called you immature in my previous post.

Peter

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Posted By: MW

John & Leon --

I could not disagree with you more. I was already well aware of the inimical "hero-worship" status of Middle-Eastern terrorists among some Palestinians. Just like Jim's links were largely irrelevant to Dan's commentary, so too are Scott's links irrelevant to vintage baseball cards. If you find articles like this "interesting" that's fine, but I don't think references to this kind of material belong on this forum. What's next? A discussion of trading cards that deal with hate crimes and gratuitous violence? How about an article about a U.S. cult that displays card images of mass murderers in the same way? Read about it on your own time.

I would not post the following link, but to provide a frame of reference for my statements:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/18/mideast.violence/index.html

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Posted By: Ye Olde Me

I found the article a sad but interesting read, and it was indeed peripherally on topic. I believe I benefitted from reading this--it is indeed a different perspective.

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Posted By: John Wojak

MW, I appreciate your points. While we disagree, I understand your view and believe it is as justified as mine. My personal view is that by publicizing such things as these "martyr cards" we can help spread an insight and hopefully useful understanding into the twisted minds that create or value them, but I recognize that a great many people feel differently and I respect that. A touchy subject with many differing views, to be sure.

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Posted By: leon

I will repeat what my dad used to always say to me down here in Texas......"son, you would argue with a billboard and give it a 30 minute headstart" best regards.....(your link had less to do with cards than Scott's too)

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Posted By: MW

"Those of little faith or dignity find nothing offensive."

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Posted By: leon

What I find offensive is the fact that some folks would rather not know anything than the truth....and BTW just because you already knew something what makes you think the rest of us did? And I am assuming you already knew about the cards the kids were wearing around their necks, which is dispicable (SP?) ...at least that is what you alluded to....best regards

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Posted By: MW

These are simple pendants that Palestinian children wear around their necks. Nothing more. They are not vintage and they are not trading cards. This is not a matter of censorship. It's a matter of a totally unrelated topic on this forum that has the potential of offending many. Again, please read about things like this in your spare time.

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Posted By: Elliot

This discussion is getting out of hand. Please let's stick to the topic of this forum. Please do not post to this thread. That's not to say that this isn't an important topic, this is just not the place. Please feel free to discuss this with each other via email.

Elliot

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Posted By: Scott

then why don't you delete the thread? The most offensive item I found in this thread is the following: "Those of little faith or dignity find nothing offensive."

Again, I bow down to those with self-professed high moral fiber. Personally, I can't speak to the faith of anyone on this board, but, please feel free to do so (by the way, could you please analyze my past posts and send me a "get into Heaven" (or whereever) free certificate when I've qualified?). There have been hints as to dignity, though, but I will leave that topic to those of you who save all this garbage for future cannon fodder.

And finally, anyone who thought I was criticizing Julie's original reply to my post can take a flying leap - my response to her was meant completely as humor, though I obviously failed there. I completely agree with what she meant, "God (whatever God you might believe in) save us all...Christian, Arab and Jew and anyone else, alike." If you can take a moment and think back beyond this post, those of you without tunnel vision might remember me defending Julie the last time someone took her words out of context - and, oddly, I received a beating then as well! Amazing.

You can take the following as me "taking my toys and going home", but I don't plan to post anything on this board in the future that is not a question,comment or reply directly pertaining to a particular card issue, and then only when no particular seller is mentioned or alluded to in the post. There are plenty of personal feuds on this board already, and I never wanted to be part of that.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I SAID "GOD SAVE THEM ALL. ARAB AND JEW ALIKE."

IS THERE SOMETHING AMBIGUOUS ABOUT THAT? SOMETHING PREJUDICED?

GEE , I'M SOO SORRY I WON'T BE ABLE TO GO TO THE NATIONAL!

NOT!!!!!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I SAID: "GOD SAVE THEM ALL. ARAB AND JEW ALIKE."

IS THERE SOMETHING AMBIGUOUS ABOUT THAT? SOMETHING PREJUDICED?

I'M SOO SORRY I WON'T BE ABLE TO GO TO THE NATIONAL.

NOT!!!!!