PSA parent company Collectors acquires Beckett

[chalupacollects]

At what point is this considered an illegal monopoly?


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[scgaynor]

Originally Posted by robw1959

However, there could be an opposite effect. Since SGC hasn't suffered the same loss of credibility that slayed GAI, supply and demand could cause their slabs to become even more desirable once they aren't being manufactured any more. I think this is a likely outcome, especially due to the tuxedo look many of us prefer over the other brands.

I think this is the right answer. SGC has always been known as the company that was most consistent with grading and the grading company preferred by vintage card collectors (PSA for investors, SGC for collectors).

It is not like SGC is some fly-by-night company.

As somebody else mentioned, there are too many high end cards in SGC holders for them to suddenly start selling at huge discounts.

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

At what point is this considered an illegal monopoly?


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The point at which the government (or, I suppose, a private plaintiff) successfully challenges it. Once could certainly ARGUE it's been a monopoly for quite some time based on market share and pricing practices.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by scgaynor

I think this is the right answer. SGC has always been known as the company that was most consistent with grading and the grading company preferred by vintage card collectors (PSA for investors, SGC for collectors).

It is not like SGC is some fly-by-night company.

As somebody else mentioned, there are too many high end cards in SGC holders for them to suddenly start selling at huge discounts.

.

+1

And F PSA
(very mature of me, I know)

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by JustinD

The question brought up in my mind when I saw this hit the news is what am I missing? ... These constant acquisitions are a canary in a coal mine of rough times ahead in the next 5 years. I would hold your ankles and put your head between your knees.

I agree completely but honestly am just sitting on the sidelines attempting to throw in my snarky unsympathetic witticisms whenever possible waiting for a huge scandal that turns the world's opinion seller of choice (PSA) into it's biggest pariah (GAI), now THAT will be a shitshow (and fun for me).


Also, completely off the subject, I seldom pay any attention to the pix that are used for profiles here, just barely noticing them via my peripheral vision while assuming that I know what they are, but I just realized that Justin's profile pic is NOT what I had always thought it was...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Doug, we already had the huge scandal, and it didn't accomplish a damn thing except to entrench PSA and its coterie of insiders even further.

[Beercan collector]

From now on when I have to buy a graded card I’m gonna try not to buy PSA.
I know makes no difference to PSA but it makes me feel better - it’ll add challenge and some adventure to my collecting - Unless you’re addicted to the registry there’s no reason to pay gigantic premiums for PSA 8 PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Doug, we already had the huge scandal, and it didn't accomplish a damn thing except to entrench PSA and its coterie of insiders even further.

A guy can dream can't he?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

A guy can dream can't he?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHVGOp5Usv4

[gkrodg00]

Originally Posted by bk400

CGC is owned by Blackstone, the largest private equity firm in the world. So if you're anti-private equity ownership, CGC isn't going to make you feel better.

But if you like the idea of a well funded alternative to PSA, then CGC certainly fits the bill.

I think Blackstone is pretty big but I think Blackrock is who you are thinking even though Blackrock is not really private equity. I believe Apollo Global is the largest private equity firm…regardless, none of this consolidation is good for the hobby or the business.


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[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think it's been five years since PSA/Collectors was acquired. Is there a single person left on the planet who thinks this was good for the hobby?

I think Nat and his partners think it was an awesome decision. Not sure if they think it was good for the hobby but it was never about it being good for the hobby. Every dealer and collector I know thinks the acquisition was by far the worst thing to happen to the hobby. And that sentiment grows with each passing month.

For any lawyers who know this area of law...if Nat wants to take Collectors public again, and I know that is his plan, if he continues to eliminate TPG competition will/could that have an impact on going public?

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Every dealer and collector I know thinks the acquisition was by far the worst thing to happen to the hobby.

The Fanatics acquisition of the 3 major exclusive sports licenses (Baseball, Basketball, Football) and the subsequent purchase of Topps is much worse.

[Ray Van]

In reality, at least for the foreseeable future, TCG cards like Pokemon will drive decision making by the grading companies like who stays and who goes. Sadly, vintage sports collectors are just along for the ride and unable to influence any of these decisions.
Ray

[FromVAtoLA]

+1 The implications of the Fanatics licensing agreements is much more concerning. Theoretically anyone can open up a new card grading company tomorrow as an alternative. Yes it's difficult, but not impossible. The Fanatics licensing agreements are exclusive and have very long terms. Fanatics also gave the unions some equity so they won't be motivated to try and exit the agreement early. Without judicial or federal intervention the only alternative is unlicensed products. Yeah, there's Leaf, but it's a much, much bigger hill to climb in my opinion.

Originally Posted by theshowandme

The Fanatics acquisition of the 3 major exclusive sports licenses (Baseball, Basketball, Football) and the subsequent purchase of Topps is much worse.

[Leon]

I collect cards of guys that are dead. I know it affects everything but I couldn't care less about what licensing is going on, unless it's with Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig etc...
Fanatics only cares about money, nothing else. That isn't a bad thing for them but it is for the hobby.

Originally Posted by FromVAtoLA

+1 The implications of the Fanatics licensing agreements is much more concerning. Theoretically anyone can open up a new card grading company tomorrow as an alternative. Yes it's difficult, but not impossible. The Fanatics licensing agreements are exclusive and have very long terms. Fanatics also gave the unions some equity so they won't be motivated to try and exit the agreement early. Without judicial or federal intervention the only alternative is unlicensed products. Yeah, there's Leaf, but it's a much, much bigger hill to climb in my opinion.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

The Fanatics acquisition of the 3 major exclusive sports licenses (Baseball, Basketball, Football) and the subsequent purchase of Topps is much worse.

Exclusive licenses are the worst thing to happen to the hobby - not company consolidation. I'm not sure why the leagues started signing exclusive deals in the first place, but the exclusive deals make any monopoly talk on the product side of the hobby a mute point. I'm actually hoping Fanatics acquires Panini; would love to see licensed Prizm baseball and a few other Panini products. Until exclusive licenses are banned from the hobby, I want all of the licenses to be under one umbrella.

CU acquiring Beckett might actually be a good thing. The public outrage might just be at the point of people actually taking a stand. Shifting back to raw cards would be a healthy development. Morally, I can't support CGC due to their Blackstone connection. I believe there's room in the hobby for strictly an authentication company, one who can tell us our cards are real while assigning a condition range to help sniff out any altered cards. If someone created a company like that with a consumer-friendly pricing model and aesthetically pleasing slab, I believe they'd do very well financially. It would probably cater more towards the vintage/pre-war collector base, but that's the base that's being abandoned right now. CU acquiring Beckett doesn't really change the modern grading landscape based on Beckett's grading volume.

Not sure this saying applies anymore since the penny is no longer being minted, but this is just my 2 cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I think Nat and his partners think it was an awesome decision. Not sure if they think it was good for the hobby but it was never about it being good for the hobby. Every dealer and collector I know thinks the acquisition was by far the worst thing to happen to the hobby. And that sentiment grows with each passing month.

For any lawyers who know this area of law...if Nat wants to take Collectors public again, and I know that is his plan, if he continues to eliminate TPG competition will/could that have an impact on going public?

Assuming no pending government antitrust proceeding looking to break up Collectors, which I think as a practical (not legal) matter would make it difficult to do an IPO, it's just a risk that gets disclosed and priced in like any other.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Leon

I collect cards of guys that are dead. I know it affects everything but I couldn't care less about what licensing is going on, unless it's with Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig etc...
Fanatics only cares about money, nothing else. That isn't a bad thing for them but it is for the hobby.

Along those lines, I'm not so sure that the hobby I'm involved in (collecting old stuff of mostly dead guys) is actually the same hobby that Fanatics is involved in.

Not a different branches on the same tree, but a different tree in the same orchard.

And there might be a road through the orchard separating the trees.

Pretty sure that nobody at Fanatics HQ cares at all about 99% of my collection.


Doug



PS - Peter that link was amazing, although my wife didn't enjoy my singing...

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Harry Niles. There's a name you don't see every day, and certainly an autograph you don't see every day. Here you go!

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

I think over time, all non PSA slabs will be worth a tiny fraction of their PSA versions. in 10 years when SGC and beckett are long gone, the prices of those slabs will plummet. Nobody will want to buy them. Sort of like a GAI slab now.

And if you want to get your money out of your cards, you will be forced to submit to to PSA and deal with the outrageous new grading standards.

Sucks for me, as two of my favorite cards are in SGC slabs - my 54 Aaron and 50B Jackie.

I can only hope for underpriced cards on the market. I'll buy em up as much as I can afford if they fall to a "tiny fraction" of PSA counterparts.

[Brian Van Horn]

Can you say growing monopoly?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Harry Niles. There's a name you don't see every day, and certainly an autograph you don't see every day. Here you go!

Nice!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Harry Niles. There's a name you don't see every day, and certainly an autograph you don't see every day. Here you go!

So is his middle initial C or E? At first glance, I thought it was @, which would be odd for a non-modern autograph.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by raulus

So is his middle initial C or E? At first glance, I thought it was @, which would be odd for a non-modern autograph.

https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/N/Pnileh101.htm

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Nico, That's a nice, very old fashioned style of C. Stanley Coveleski employed that style as well!

[Yoda]

Are we ready for the Anti-Trust tango?

[oldjudge]

Big money on both sides but Blackstone has the deepest pockets. I have followed Blackstone for almost 20 years---great company with incredible management.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Big money on both sides but Blackstone has the deepest pockets. I have followed Blackstone for almost 20 years---great company with incredible management.

$1.2 trillion in AUM. The $500 million or whatever they paid for their stake in CGC is a pittance.

[steve B]

so what's private equitys long play in grading? There isn't much real estate to strip like most retailers they've put under.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

I think over time, all non PSA slabs will be worth a tiny fraction of their PSA versions. in 10 years when SGC and beckett are long gone, the prices of those slabs will plummet. Nobody will want to buy them. Sort of like a GAI slab now.

And if you want to get your money out of your cards, you will be forced to submit to to PSA and deal with the outrageous new grading standards.

Sucks for me, as two of my favorite cards are in SGC slabs - my 54 Aaron and 50B Jackie.

I would say from what I'm seeing in the Major Auction houses none of the key stars in SGC holders are selling for a faction of their PSA Versions. To many great vintage pre and post war cards are in SGC holders. To me they're in no way shape or form going to become Current GIA value.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by steve B

so what's private equitys long play in grading? There isn't much real estate to strip like most retailers they've put under.

Sell to another private equity fund willing to pay even more?