Is CC Sabathia a Hall of Famer?

[yanks87]

It is the Hall of Fame argument time of year! I will once again and throw my foil hat on and jump into the fray.

CC a Hall of Famer? Yes. I think there needs to be an establishment of the GOLDEN NUMBERS of Hall induction. CC being one of 14 pitchers with 250 wins and 3000 K's makes it a no brainer for me. When you think about the pre-Yankee days, he was an absolute monster. First ballot all the way.

Ichiro is a no brainer for me, he was truly a generational hitter, we won't see the likes of that plate discipline for a while, if ever again.

SINCE THE DOOR IS OPEN, I will once again go back to my Golden Number theory for hall induction. As the game continues to go to specialized roles, there has to be some bench mark for HOF inductions, or a LOT of good players are going to make it in. I know that there are plenty that are already a bunch of polarizing players in the hall, but my biggest pet peeve is players like Edgar Martinez, in my mind, a WAR induction only. Good player, yup, great hitter, yup, hall of famer? NOPE. It's a moot point, but a DH going into the Hall should have 3000 hits or 500 home runs. They should not be judged the same way field players for eligibility. Edgar had a .309/2247/309 (BA/Hits/HR) line. David Ortiz is more worthy of the hall with a .286/2472/541 line because of those 541 home runs. Edgar never should have gone in.

For closers, what is the golden number for saves? 400? If that is the case then there are going to be a bunch going into the hall, is John Franco a hall of famer? Kenley Jansen has 447 saves, 20 more than Wagner, is he a first ballot guy?!! There is a part of me that wonders why it is not acceptable that on some years, there may be only one induction, or none?! Crazy talk, I know, but like I said, it is that time of year.

[Seven]

I think what it comes down to, as well, is the fact that the Hall of Fame is not the Hall of Stats. If you were a well liked player, that put up numbers, you have a better shot of getting in. I think this is also what hurt the big 3 of the PED era. Clemens, Bonds and ARod, were vilified at one point or another in their careers.

Sabathia hit some of the stat thresholds needed, everyone had positive things to say about him, and he was loved by his teammates. Am I a little surprised he was a first ballot? Yes. But he was going to make it regardless.

[jayshum]

Given how the game changes over time, I think it would be hard to just base induction to the HoF on reaching certain statistical milestones. Also, that would potentially reward compilers who play for a long time but never were considered to be a great player. Harold Baines anyone?

[KJA]

Originally Posted by yanks87

It is the Hall of Fame argument time of year! I will once again and throw my foil hat on and jump into the fray.

CC a Hall of Famer? Yes. I think there needs to be an establishment of the GOLDEN NUMBERS of Hall induction. CC being one of 14 pitchers with 250 wins and 3000 K's makes it a no brainer for me. When you think about the pre-Yankee days, he was an absolute monster. First ballot all the way.

Ichiro is a no brainer for me, he was truly a generational hitter, we won't see the likes of that plate discipline for a while, if ever again.

SINCE THE DOOR IS OPEN, I will once again go back to my Golden Number theory for hall induction. As the game continues to go to specialized roles, there has to be some bench mark for HOF inductions, or a LOT of good players are going to make it in. I know that there are plenty that are already a bunch of polarizing players in the hall, but my biggest pet peeve is players like Edgar Martinez, in my mind, a WAR induction only. Good player, yup, great hitter, yup, hall of famer? NOPE. It's a moot point, but a DH going into the Hall should have 3000 hits or 500 home runs. They should not be judged the same way field players for eligibility. Edgar had a .309/2247/309 (BA/Hits/HR) line. David Ortiz is more worthy of the hall with a .286/2472/541 line because of those 541 home runs. Edgar never should have gone in.

For closers, what is the golden number for saves? 400? If that is the case then there are going to be a bunch going into the hall, is John Franco a hall of famer? Kenley Jansen has 447 saves, 20 more than Wagner, is he a first ballot guy?!! There is a part of me that wonders why it is not acceptable that on some years, there may be only one induction, or none?! Crazy talk, I know, but like I said, it is that time of year.

Good conversation to have about closers, I do think at least 400 saves but I also think a sub 3.00 ERA and maybe 1000k's? Right now Kimbrel and Jansen are over 400 along with K Rod and Franco. Next closest to 400 is Aroldis Chapman who I think falls short of 400. I do wonder if we will ever see a relief pitcher get in, someone that isn't a closer like a Jesse Orosco type.

[jchcollins]

CC as 1st ballot surprised me, but I quickly became more annoyed by the number of people on social media who think it's a literal felony that Ichiro wasn't unanimous. The importance of institutional history is a short-lived thing, I guess.

[John1941]

Ichiro was an incredible player and richly deserved to be a Hall of Famer - but I really don't understand why every famous & qualified player is supposed to be elected unanimously. Ichiro and Jeter have both fallen just one vote short recently - why were they even close to being unanimously elected? They were both incredible players and richly deserve to be Hall of Famers, but they're not perfect - Jeter wasn't Honus at the plate and the defensive metrics hate him, and Ichiro didn't hit for power or walk (or get along with the media). (For context: I'm a Yankees fan & love Ichiro.)

Mariano being elected unanimously made at least some sense to me because he was almost the perfect closer. (I may be biased because I'm a big Mariano fan...) But if every great player is elected unanimously, then being elected unanimously will no longer mean anything. It will become routine & we'll be angry when our favorite isn't elected without a single dissent. That just doesn't seem healthy. Isn't being elected to the Hall of Fame enough?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by John1941

Ichiro was an incredible player and richly deserved to be a Hall of Famer - but I really don't understand why every famous & qualified player is supposed to be elected unanimously. Ichiro and Jeter have both fallen just one vote short recently - why were they even close to being unanimously elected? They were both incredible players and richly deserve to be Hall of Famers, but they're not perfect - Jeter wasn't Honus at the plate and the defensive metrics hate him, and Ichiro didn't hit for power or walk (or get along with the media). (For context: I'm a Yankees fan & love Ichiro.)

Why would a player need to be perfect to be unanimous? I don't understand the connection. If a player is an obvious HOFer, such as Jeter, Ripken, Mantle, Pujols, Seaver, Bench, Ichiro, they should be unanimous. For them to be not unanimous is some sports writer saying "nah, that guy isn't a Hall of Famer" when that is CLEARLY not the case. And, no, the "Well, Babe Ruth wasn't unanimous so Ichiro shouldn't be either" argument isn't valid either.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Why would a player need to be perfect to be unanimous? I don't understand the connection. If a player is an obvious HOFer, such as Jeter, Ripken, Mantle, Pujols, Seaver, Bench, Ichiro, they should be unanimous. For them to be not unanimous is some sports writer saying "nah, that guy isn't a Hall of Famer" when that is CLEARLY not the case. And, no, the "Well, Babe Ruth wasn't unanimous so Ichiro shouldn't be either" argument isn't valid either.

To me, the only reason that makes sense for withholding a vote from an obvious Hall of Famer is if there are more than 10 candidates that a voter wants to vote for so the obvious Hall of Famer is left off their ballot because the voter figures that candidate will get voted in anyway. If the voting method were changed so that a voter cast a Yes/No vote for every person on the ballot, it's possible that there would be more unanimous inductees.

[GeoPoto]

Maybe the voter believes that, particularly with the advent of public shaming resulting in a trend toward a "bigger" hall, that unanimous should be reserved as a way to honor the top one tenth of one percent. And he doesn't think Ichiro's career warrants that distinction. Nobody else has to agree with him. It's his opinion and he is entitled to it. He doesn't have to believe that Ichiro doesn't belong in the hall. He only has to trust that Ichiro will make it without his vote.