Let�s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.

Johnphotoman · #1 12-05-2024, 10:23 AM

Thank you, Exhibitman: You have given proof to much of what I have been saying. If you have a copy of the Festberg cards, can you post a picture of the backs, and front. I like to see what paper stock the Festberg was printed on. You will like my next post # 4. It goes into much of what you have just posted. John.

Johnphotoman · #2 12-05-2024, 10:53 AM

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category�like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates� many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at�is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

steve B · #3 12-09-2024, 08:59 AM

A few points/things I don't agree with here. Although overall it's pretty good.

My comments in red

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?
I can't imagine the shop I worked for working off a photostat/photocopy as the original The quality of photostats even in 1980 was way too low.

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

I believe it would be possible on cards like these to make a mask from a contact print of the original card which was already screened. It would be hard to get a good negative that lost as little quality as possible but a good photo person could do it.

That assumes offset lithography, which was probably used. Other processes probably wouldn't work well for playing cards, and Aarco wouldn't be likely to invest in an entirely different process just for what was a new product.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.
I agree about the square corner cards. Most likely they just weren't put through the round cornering machine. (I ran one that dated back to the early 1900s at the shop)

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category�like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates� many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

Yes, saving the on press plates for 20+ years didn't happen. They get a bit messed up.
BUT
Again, that assumes offset lithography.
I have plates used to print sports postcards, and could probably still get a print from them but they're from an entirely different process. One that was offset printed from photoengraved plates mounted to wood blocks. Much like typography with an extra step.
It's possible aarco used that process, in which case, those plates would have probably lasted a long time
The shop I was at saved the masks used to make the plates for most jobs for years. Many were scrapped when the Hunts tried to corner silver. But until then most jobs were very reprintable. At least one was reprinted while I was there.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.
Agreed

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at�is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

Johnphotoman · #4 12-09-2024, 09:11 AM

Thank you Steve B - You make very good points. You are right, it is not impossible to make good forgeries. The point I was making is I believe we can rule out the Festburg cards as forgeries, or re-prints from the original plates sometime in the 1970-1980s. Yes you are right a plate can be used over and over, most shops did save their offset plates, but to save one for over 29 years, would be hard. Remember we are talking about Printing from 1947, much different than what we have today. And I cannot say how the cards where actually printed 100%. But the odds are they where printed through offset printing. Thanks John PS. I refer you to KeyMan Collectibles about photo stats.

https://keymancollectibles.com/photo...insonphoto.htm

Johnphotoman · #5 12-09-2024, 11:15 AM

Below are three cards from my collection. Two round corner cards and one square corner card. The image in the holder is the one with the whitest back, facing sideways. Just by feeling the two round corner cards you would think the whiter one is thicker, it is also the card that has bevel edges, as opposed to the other one that has more rounded edges, meaning more uniform edges. I used a digital caliper on all the cards, that all came out to be the exact same thickness. I need a new black light, so I did not check them out with one. John

butchie_t · #6 12-09-2024, 05:21 PM

John,

"Get ready butchiet t, this will involve you."

Did I miss something in that post. Was I supposed to do something?

I did not see what I was to be 'involved' with.

Cheers....

B. T.

Johnphotoman · #7 12-09-2024, 06:10 PM

Thank you butchiet t, no, it is coming, it taking longer to put the information together. I am glad you are reading along. What is your opinion so far?
John

steve B · #8 12-10-2024, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnphotoman

Thank you Steve B - You make very good points. You are right, it is not impossible to make good forgeries. The point I was making is I believe we can rule out the Festburg cards as forgeries, or re-prints from the original plates sometime in the 1970-1980s. Yes you are right a plate can be used over and over, most shops did save their offset plates, but to save one for over 29 years, would be hard. Remember we are talking about Printing from 1947, much different than what we have today. And I cannot say how the cards where actually printed 100%. But the odds are they where printed through offset printing. Thanks John PS. I refer you to KeyMan Collectibles about photo stats.

https://keymancollectibles.com/photo...insonphoto.htm

The process matters.
Offset lithography with the thin aluminum plates - those plates were rarely saved. We piled them up, used them for dustpans, support for bondo on cars, patches for sheds... then when the pile got to be big enough what was left nearly all of them, went to the scrap guy.
How the 1962 Topps plates survived is amazing. I knew the story once but have forgotten.

The other offset - from print blocks or type used very durable "plates" and those would have been saved. Like these, and a couple hockey ones I have

Reprinting from these would be easy.

The way keyman is using photostat is not familiar to me. Photostat was an early term for photocopy from a photocopy machine using the process still used today that uses static electricity to get the toner to stick on the paper.
That's the Xerox process.
Looking it up, the photostat process directly exposed a roll of paper then developed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photostat_machine

What they describe is a part of the process of creating the original art to photograph. I guess it's possible they could have photocopied the signature onto a transparency, but with a full print shops resources at hand that would have been doing it the hard way.
Photographing the signature to make a film transparency that would become part of the mask would have been easy.

Johnphotoman · #9 12-10-2024, 09:13 AM

steve B, Again you make very good points. When I talked about the photostats and printing plates, I was trying not to get too technical. Most shops I managed did save up the aluminum plates and send them to the scrape yard. If any of these did survive , my guess is they would not be very good to print from, the image quality would not be very good, a point I believe you made. But yes, someone could have old BB printing plates. But plates from 1947 could not be used run re-prints from. John

Johnphotoman · #10 12-10-2024, 10:26 AM

How photostats were used in printing. It was done in a dark room using negatives making a print on photostat paper. Much like you make a print of a photo from a negative, it is printed or say imaged onto photo paper. In this case the image was imaged onto photostat paper. That photostat would then be use to make a half-tone negative that was used to make the plate.

It was not a photocopy, but made right from the original image. In this way you could add the name right on to the photostat, thereby making a new negative with no loss of details. The photostat which is just a photo print would then be used to make the BB card. Like the photostat in Keyman article on Jackie Robinson. It has his name on it, it is a photo print from a photostat. I hope this helps. Photostats are photo prints imaged on to photo paper. John, PS one reason why it would be hard to find the original negatives that made the plate, is because they to were scrapped for the silver content in the film.

Johnphotoman · #11 12-05-2024, 11:13 AM

The printer had to have an original photo to print the Bond Bread cards. But how was this done? Only a small number of original photographs were used to print the Bond Bread cards. To produce the card they would use Photosats of the original photo. Why is this important to our investigation?

It all has to do with people calling many of the cards fake. Like the 1947 Square Bond Bread / Sports Star cards. Since they were a small number of the original photo, someone printing fake cards like these would not be able to produce the cards we have today, unless they had the original photo to do so. The only other way to print the cards would be a copy of a baseball card. Well not the only other way, but the others do not apply to this discussion, like photo-copies. And we know by using a printed baseball card, that would produce a moire pattern on it. No printer would be able to stop the patter of the moire, they could do a good job of hiding it, to make it look as good as possible, but not as good as the original. This can be done by changing the angle of the screen. But a moire would still be visible. With some practice even the less experienced person could still tell.

Therefore we can rule out the Festberg cards, the square corner cards as being forgeries or fakes. Mind you I am not saying these cards do not have forgeries, I have seen some myself. Even the grading companies miss this, I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes, by some of the top grading companies. These same grading companies will not grade square corner cards anymore. What a joke.

What I am pointing out is to stop putting an umbrella over cards (calling them fakes) just because they do not fit into some category�like they have to be round cornered or printed on a certain kind of paper stock; just because someone says it was the only paper stock used for printing cards in the 1940s - 1950s. Or it is the paper used to print Bond Bread cards.

You want a fun exercise, take the time and go back to Ted Z thread, you will see a lot of fake cards posted as the real deal. But they are obviously fake cards. Comb the thread, you will be surprised as to how many fake cards you can spot now.

This one takes the cake for me, oh they are not fakes, but someone found the original printing plates and used them many years later to print cards. For a printer to have the original photo/ photosats or plates� many years later and use them to print from- is a million to one in my opinion. Having the exact same photo is just about out of the question, I can tell you from experience it would be very hard to save printing plates for over 20 years, so they can be used again.

When I said a million to one, the movie Dumb and Dumber came to mind. There was this line in the movie that went something like this: This guy asked a girl what's the chance of you and I getting together, she responded a million to one. What did he reply; oh so you're saying I still have a chance. Now of course that was not the exact line, I was paraphrasing. I hope you get my point.

Layout of the cards to be printed was done in a certain way, most of the time the cards would be laid out in a way to show cut marks on the layout, where the cards were to be cut, if the person cutting the cards missed the cut marks, you would then have the potential for different size cards and the images on the cards would appear to be in different position.

The layout and cutting of the cards explains why the exact same card can have the image on the card printed in what looks like a different position on the card. In other words, the image is not in the exact same position on the cards because they were cut wrong.

Therefore, for one to say a card is fake is all wrong, just because a card has a different position on a card, or a little smaller / bigger does not make it a fake, or that it was printed at some other time.

As far as the print quality goes you can not distinguish one card from another, or say it shows that a card was printed at another time. Just because one card is darker, lighter, faded or has more contrast, or spots on the cards. The printing process can count for such things during a run. The only quality we can look at�is to see if it is printed with a moire.

Images of cards cut wrong, card 1 top side, card 2 left side, card 3 right side of card. John

Johnphotoman · #12 12-05-2024, 11:55 AM

Abctoo- Posted a good thread related to our conversation, it's worth a look. I do not agree that is was not Arrco company that printed the cards. Thread #246 John
https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D07%2D2020

Johnphotoman · #13 12-06-2024, 11:28 AM

To be clear, the above thread mention is a good read, but not totally accurate. I plan to go over what I believe to be wrong with that thread soon, for now just enjoy it. John

Johnphotoman · #14 12-07-2024, 05:23 PM

Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part one.
From my point of view, the original thread by Ted Z is out of date, and full of
misleading statements. To get to the misleading statements about the
Festberg find, we need to look at some statements made about Bond
Bread in general, and look at the differences between statements made
between Bond Bread and the Festberg find.

As I have said I think we can disqualify certain sets in the old Ted Z thread,
that were called “Festberg” cards, by going over statements made about
cards that were posted there. More on this further down this post. Get
ready butchiet t, this will involve you.

Quotes from Ted Z page 1: Quote #1: “It was the Summer of '47....my
sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread
packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams,a Stan
Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card.”

Quote #2: “These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our
neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we
eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4
Boxers in a complete set”.

Quote #3: “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this
general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or
ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages.
Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were
issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs
have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have
been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "imposters".
(Emphasis mine - as Bond Bread cards).

Then he goes on to say: “Shown here are two cards from the 1949
(unknown) issue (see below) which includes 24 of the BB players depicted
in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional BB player (or 2). Also,
many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were included. These cards
may have been printed by the same firm that printed the 1947 set.
However, their SQUARE corners and their inferior cardboard stock belie
the fact that these cards are NOT related to the "1947 Bond Bread" issue.
A recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars)
suggest a 1949 issue date since Walker Cooper is depicted in this
col-lection as a NY Giant (Cooper was traded to Cinci in the Summer of
'49).”

Those statements above by Ted Z set the stage for the controversy we
have today. Right from the start.

My conclusion and re-cape: Ok, not bad Ted had first hand knowledge; he
collected Bond Bread cards right from loaves of Bond Bread. Look at what
Ted said: “there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a
complete set”. Making up 48 cards in all.

Ted also mentioned what he called a 1949 unknown issue, consistent of 24
of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an additional
BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that era were
included. How did he know how many cards were in the unknown set, why
not list them at this time? Also, notice how he explains the set; The 1947
set did not have any movie stars in it. Now get this, the 1949 set had an
additional BB player or 2, who were these players; why not name them?
Then there were also cards in the form of popular movie stars of the era.
Great, how many? And why not tell us how many cards in all - in this
so-called 1949 set? Why not give names at this time. I do not like the fact
that at a later time in the post these facts seem to be given.

Ted then said, "The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the
same firm that printed the 1947 set. They were printed with square corners
on inferior cardboard stock, and are not related to the 1947 Bond Bread
issue."

Ok stay with me, he goes on to say, “A recent find of many of these
SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest a 1949 issue date since
Walker Cooper is depicted in this collection as a NY Giant (Cooper was
traded to Cinci in the Summer of '49).”

Question, does a recent find of square cards, suggests the find happened
in 2009; Since this thread has a date of Mar 2009? Does this imply a recent
find to be say 2000. I wished he gave the date and not said it was recent.
Also notice about this unknown set it is from 1949. It is an unknown set,
but somehow it is given a date for when it was issued. Oh. we did get an
answer as to why the set was given an issued date of 1949…
It has to do with Walker Cooper, I will get to that. Ted said the set consisted
of 24 of the BB players depicted in the 1947 Bond Bread issue and an
additional BB player (or 2). Also, many of the popular Movie Stars of that
era were included. All good information to have. Just wished he was a little
clearer on the facts.

Pay attention… It is not called the Festberg find, and in fact there is no
mention of the 1980 Festberg find at this time. I do have to ask the question
would a find in 1980 (the Festberg find) be called recent in 2009, some 29
years later.

For now- since there was no mention of the Festberg find, just the unknown
set, suggest there were two different finds, a 1980s find we call “Festberg”
and an unknown set from 1949, found in recent years. Maybe sometime in
2000.

Let’s look at the facts and see if we can figure out these two sets of BB
card finds. Can we separate the two into different groups, or are they both
the same? It does look like Ted was describing one set, an unknown set
and according to him - it was a recent find from the time he posted his
thread, Mar 2009.

Again I have to ask what does recent mean? 5 years, 10 years- ok go as
far as 15 years maybe, but not over 20 years. It does not make sense to
say something is recent that happened over 29 years ago. Simple logic
would say the unknown set of cards were printed before the summer of
1949.

This simple logic implies that the cards were printed 1947-1948. Why would
I say 1947-1948? If Walker Cooper was depicted in this collection as a NY
Giant by the time of 1949 he would have been traded. A 1949 issue does
not make any sense to me...how can one conclude someone was traded in
summer to Cinci, in 1949 but the photo shows Cooper in a NY Giants
uniform, simple logic would say the BB card was made before 1949. Yes,
Cooper played for the New York Giants baseball team from 1946–1949, but
by the time the season of 1949 Cooper was in was in a Cinci uniform.

Ted was right, the two card sets are unrelated. Meaning they were not
made by Bond Bread, but they do have a connection. What did Ted say?
“The 1949 unknown issue may have been printed by the same firm that
printed the 1947 set.” He got that part right. The two sets were printed by
the Arrco Playing Card company.

Let go over it one more time, Bond Bread did not print their own cards. As
Exhibitman points out in thread #82 of this thread - “Bond Bread didn't
make any of these cards, Aarco did. Bond Bread licensed them from Aarco,
as is apparent from the many cards, picture packs and photos made from
the same images.” And it is a point I have made from the beginning.
One more point, I have always believed that the Collectors & Traders -
Sport Star subject cards had cut cornered edges. Look at the boxes, it sure
does look like the cards have beveled corners. Thet do not look uniform
like round corner cards do.

Now let's have another look at those boxes of Collectors & Traders - Sport
Star subject cards without the first card showing in them.
-called unknown set was printed around the same time as the Bond Bread
cards. We do know that the squared corned cards were issued in boxed sets sometime around 1947-1949. These box sets are what Ted called the unknown set. No mystery here…they were the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects printed by the Aarco company 1947-1949.

I need to point out that Aarco was printing BB cards and the like in 1947
known as Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects, before they
printed any Bond Bread cards as - “Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject”

Notice the 2 boxes with 12 cards in each.
Aarco made 4 boxes with 12 cards in each... that comes to 48 cards, the same number as the:Bond Bread” set, no coincidence, Aarco just produced the same cards for Bond bread.

Do you notice anything different about them? The boxes were die cut with
windows in them to show the first card, the windows are die cut / beveled or
you can say rounded. This tells us the Collectors & Traders - Sport Star
subject cards had square or rectangle edges…they were not round at all.
I propose or should say the facts tell us that the unknown square cornered
cards that Ted was telling us about…are in fact the squared cornered
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards from 1947-1949.

These would mean that all rounded and die cut cards (beveled) edge cards
all belong to cards that were inserted in Bond Bread. But wait, we were told
there was a difference in the rounded and beveled edge cards. I was in this
camp, I did believe that “only the rounded corner cards were the only ones
that were inserted in the loaves of bread. I believed that’s how we could tell
which cards were Bond Bread. I believed that beveled cards belong to
Collectors & Traders - Sport Star subject cards.

Ted's own card post in the very first page of his thread proves that he had
indeed collected right form loves of bread, cards with rounded edges and
beveled edges. See example below. Some look rounded and others look
to be beveled (die-cut).

I explained how die-cut cards have different looking edges as the run goes
on, wear and tear. No one cut them with a pair of scissors, they are no
fakes. Just by the sheer number of die cut cards, no one could produce
that many fakes. Fakes are made for profit - cutting the ends off of the
Sports Star cards would not make you enough profit to go through the effort
to make fake cards, One has to buy cards and then cut them, then try and
resell them at a profit. I am not saying someone has not tried - but there are
way more bigger fish to fry them than wasting your time with small
potatoes. Yes there could be cards out there with scissors edges - but I
don't know how anybody could tell.

I want to make a point about a couple of statements made in the Standard
catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards, 4th Edition. - From the Bond Bread
category it says…“At some point after the original Bond Bread issue, half of
the cards were reprinted in a squared corner, 2 � x3 � size on a slightly
different stock for purposes unknown.”

(Half the cards would mean 24 cards). Where did that information come
from? Did you know that Ted Zanidakis( Ted Z) made contributions to the
catalog. It would be nice to see where that statement came from, meaning
who was the person that contributed that part to the Bond Bread category.
Under the Bond Bond category it also says- “A large quantity of these 24
cards was found in a New York warehouse in the 1980s.”
Now I believe that is wrong, everything I have read says the 1980 find was
found in New Jersey. Notice this find was not called the Festberg. It just
says a large quantity of these 24 cards were found in a warehouse in New
York. We have to ask, is this a different find or is it the Festberg find?

In the same paragraph it reads- “To complicate the situation, the squared
Corner cards were illegally counterfeited sometime after 2000, often sold in
the high graded slabs by fraudulent grading companies.
Could these cards found after 2000 be the ones Ted called recent? “A
recent find of many of these SQUARE cards (BB and Movie Stars) suggest
a 1949 issue date.” Certainly since Ted post was Mar. 2009, a 2000 card
find would be considered recent to 2009.

Also, if the 2000 cards were illegally counterfeited, and sold by grading
companies, this could explain why I have seen so many forgeries that are
definitely counterfeits in slabs from grading companies.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part two. John

The Images: Photo #1 the two cards from the unknown issue. #2 Notice 2 boxes with 12 cards in each. #3 4 boxes showing the die cut boxes. #4 Show the cards in Ted collection from the first page, notice the corners of the cards they are not all the same.

Johnphotoman · #15 12-09-2024, 08:51 AM

Recap of Bond Bread and Festberg cards on what was posted in the Ted Z
thread: All about the edges of the cards (die - cut), the back of the cards,
and the Festberg discovery.

As I have combed through the original thread from back in 2009 - started
by Ted Z; I was shocked to see how much the information was twisted
around to fit an agenda. I was amazed at how so many different quotes
made - were just misquoted later on in the thread to meet with that
agenda.

I do not know if the thread started out to have an agenda, but it sure seems
like it did. As the thread went on, it devolved into someone or someone�s
own point of view. This agenda or point of view single-handedly caused
more controversy on the Bond Bread cards, before there was a thread.
Now I will say, I am glad for that thread, without it we would not have as
much information about the Bond Bread issues. It has given us very good
information. Believe it or not I have gained more from the false information
then from the truth.

What was this point of view (agenda)? Only the cards that Ted and others
had� are the only cards that are the real Bond Bread cards. All others are
fakes, reprints, not printed 1947-1949. Again this is my point of view.
I know this is not a nice thing to say, and Ted Z is not here to defend
himself, but as I laid out the facts; I believe you will see that if you held a
different opinion than the one the thread was promoting� you were wrong,
or just did know what you were talking about. These facts will come right
from the thread, that are not mine, but those who had posted their opinion.

Quote from thread #8 posted 04-04-2009, By: Ted Zanidakis:

�There is a significant difference in the cardboard stock used in the original
1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE
cards. When you compare these cards, you'll immediately notice�......
1....the 1947 cards are slightly thicker
2....there is a faint gloss on the 1947 cards and not on the other cards
3....the contrast on the 1947 cards is superior to the other cards
4....the backs of the 1947 cards have retained their original white
color.....while the backs of the other cards have a "toned" effect.

Take note what Ted Z said, �There is a significant difference in the
cardboard stock used in the original 1947 Bond Bread cards vs. the
subsequent (unknown series) of SQUARE cards.� Images provided by Ted. Image 1.

Quote from Ted Z, thread #212, 05-14-2020, �As you know, the original
1947 BOND BREAD cards have bright white backs. The re-printed (24
cards) from the "Festberg find" have toned backs. If the bottom Robinson in
your scan has a toned back (as I suspect) it has been faked to look like an
original 1947 BOND BREAD card by someone who rounded it's corners.�
images provided by Ted Z. Image 2.

Ted was talking about a post made by Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207,
05-14-2020. Where we do not see the backs, but he is very clear on the
images he provided - �The re-printed (24 cards) from the "Festberg find"
have toned backs.�

Question: how did Ted Z know there were 24 cards in the set of Festberg
find? Think about it, I will give an answer later, that is a subject for itself.

Quote from- Gobucsmagic74 - post # 207, 05-14-2020,
�Take a look at the example he shows as an original "Bond
Bread/Homogenized Bread" Jackie Robinson and note the subtle
differences in the cropping of the corners and the image between a Bond
Bread and a "Sports Star Subject". The first example (with white
background) (Bond Bread) is an example posted by Ted.�

�The second is from the ebay lot. (black background). The difference is
clear and evident. The Sports Star Subjects Jackie has cropped corners
which are much more "square" than the Bond Bread exemplar. Also much more of the "Dodgers" can be seen in the Bond Bread card, even when
factoring in the off-set/miscut. These are 100% not the same cards from the
same set, regardless of whether a third party grading company mistakenly
labels them as such.� image 3.

Too bad we did not see the backs of the cards. I do agree that the two
cards are not the same�but not because of the die-cut edges. It is
because I believe the eBay lot to be a counterfeit from copying, not from making another halftone from the original card. I know they are scans
and hard to tell; But luckily the images were enlarged, which shows that the
eBay is not a halftone but looks more like a continuous tone image, like
one you would get from a copier. Look at the enlarged images provided.
Do you see the difference between the two? Images 4,5,6,7.

With image #4 being the eBay fake. Image #5 Teds card showing the halftone dots. Image #6 Teds card, showing dots. Image # 6 eBay card no dots, the dots you do see are from copying, there are no distinct dot patterns.

Let�s go over the differences between a halftone image and a continuous
image. A "halftone" is a printing technique where an image is reproduced
using tiny dots of varying sizes to simulate different shades of color,
creating a continuous tone effect, while a "photocopy" is a simple copy of a
document made using a machine that directly transfers an image onto
paper, typically with a lower resolution and without the complex dot pattern
of a halftone; essentially, a halftone is a specific printing method for
creating realistic images, while a photocopy is just a copy of a document
made with a copier machine.

Depending on the quality of the photocopy machine, a photocopy might
appear slightly less sharp than a high-quality halftone print. A photograph
is considered a continuous tone image, meaning it displays a smooth range
of tones from dark to light, with every possible shade in between, rather
than distinct, separate dot patterns.

Quote #9 Posted By: boxingcardman, 04-04-2009. �Although Primo
Carnera was the world heavyweight champ in the 1930s, technically, the
card in this set is a wrestling card since he is shown in his wrestling garb.
Doesn't make a difference on pricing; he is still collected as a boxer.}
Hate to cause confusion, but the cards were sold in 4 boxes of 12 each as
"Sports Star Subjects". I have a scan of the cards in the boxes from some
auction years ago (don't recall which one). The front cards on the boxes are
DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter and Robinson.�

Notice boxingcardman did not post any pictures here, he said, � I have a
scan of the cards in the boxes from some auction years ago (don't recall
which one). The front cards on the boxes are DiMaggio, Hodges, Slaughter
and Robinson.�

Quote #11 Posted by Ted Z, 04-04-2009. � On the contrary....no "confusion"
here, guy. Indeed, confirmation of the SQUARE cards being issued as a
set of their own. It's been my understanding that the SQUARE cards were
1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small boxes. Until now, I have
referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown" issue. Thanks
to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star Subjects"
issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.

Notice that boxingcardman makes no mention of dates for the "Sports Star
Subjects". Only Ted Z gave dates: �It's been my understanding that the
SQUARE cards were 1st available in 1949, and into the 1950's in small
boxes. Until now, I have referred to the SQUARE cards as an "unknown"
issue. Thanks to you, now we can identify them as the "Sports Star
Subjects" issue.....NOT a "1947 Bond Bread" issue.�

It is not boxingcardman saying that the "Sports Star Subjects" were not
issued in 1947, it is Ted Z saying that. Why is that, could it be Ted Z
�agenda�, to make the point that the square Sports Star Subjects were
issued in 1949 - 1950.

Ted goes on to say: �Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards. Two of
which are the BB/Movie Star cards....Lou Boudreau/Ingrid
Bergen and Johnny Mize/Victor Mature. Also, note the difference in the width of the Bond Bread Jansen card vs its SQUARE card counterpart. The Bond Bread cards are consistently 1/16 th of an inch narrower.�

Now I have a whole other problem in what Ted Z said: About the images he
posted. Ted Z posted 3 square cards that he implies are "Sports Star
Subjects" cards. He goes on to tell us to notice the width of the square
cards.

It might be hard to see the images, but the square cards he posted are
perforated. Image # 8. And in fact have their own destination in the Standard catalog of
Vintage Baseball cards. (�1947 Bond Bread Perforated, Due-Sided.) The
catalog tells us, �The manner of distribution for this variety of the Bond
Bread W571/D305 card is unknown.� Notice that the Due-Sided Perforated
cards are called Bond Bread.

What does Ted Z say, �Shown here are 3 of the SQUARE cards.� Which he
implies are Sports Star Subject cards. He makes the point that they are
1/16 bigger. But did not tell us� those cards are - W571/D305 Bond Bread
cards. Yes that could be the wrong destination for them, but that is a
discussion for another time.

The catalog does not call these Due-Sided Perforated cards �Sports Star
Subject cards, boxingcardman does not call them Sports Star Subject
cards, (why would he, he did not see them until Ted posted them), that is
Ted doing so. I can not say why Ted calls these W571 perforated cards
Sports Star Subject cards, maybe he just misidentified them. But he did contribute to the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards. Let's just
leave it there.

Note the description from the catalog: �These different in that they have
two, three, or four sides perforated indicating they were issued in sheet
form, Also this group has instead of a blank back, another picture.�
Why did Ted Z not post the backs of the cards, was it because they were
two sided? Or is it because it did not fit with his agenda? The images he
posted are from 1947. That does not fit in his widow of 1949-1950.
Up next - Report number 5: Festberg Discovery part three. John

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