Persons and Capote / Poss OT

[frankbmd]

I am interested in not only the nuances of the cards I collect, but also about the nuances and stories of the players. Arch Persons has a T206 card, but this still may be OT. He played for Montgomery in 1908 and 1909. He was out of baseball by 1912.

In 1924 Truman Capote was born in New Orleans. His father was not around for long in Truman's life, but his father's name was Arch Persons, from a "prominent" Alabama family. Truman spent a portion of his childhood with cousins in Monroeville, Alabama. I have wondered whether our Arch Persons SL is the father of Truman Capote, but have been unable to verify this.

The dates are plausible, the geography works and the name isn't all that common. I cited some reference material I had found awhile back and asked the Library of Congress for help. The person who answered my request seemed to care less in his response, which was not helpful.

Is there anyone else on the Board, who has any information on Persons the ballplayer that may be helpful in resolving this issue?

Not sure whether this has been discussed here before or whether it belongs by the water cooler, but I decided to toss it up here and see what happens.

[brickyardkennedy]

I realize it's not much help, but I think there's a facial resemblance.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Holy Cow!! That is really amazing Frank!! I have been a BIG fan of Capote for as long as I remember. He was one of the greatest writers of his, or any time. Did you make this connection all by yourself? This is akin to the Higgs Boson or "god" particle in physics. There must be someone who knows. I have read everything by Capote but nothing much about him other than his autobiographical writings. Of course no light was ever shed on his biological parents. The truth must be out there, and I will try to research it too.
Congratulations on this remarkable discovery or coincidence or what ever it is. Thanks for bringing it to my (our) attention. You should be highly commended for coming up with this theory. Sincerely, Dave (aloha)

[GregMitch34]

Interesting. My web research also finds no link for dad to baseball, always described as "schemer" or "clerk for steamboat company" etc--but could have been ballplayer a few years earlier. Good luck.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Interesting. My web research also finds no link for dad to baseball, always described as "schemer" or "clerk for steamboat company" etc--but could have been ballplayer a few years earlier. Good luck.

+1

Joe

[brickyardkennedy]

While the writer states that he has not "validated" this information, he states that Truman's father was born in 1897. That being the case, that would not be him on the t206.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/persons/messages/453.html

[Clark7781]

As a genealogy addict, history buff, and baseball fanatic, (and Capote FAN), this thread intrigues me.... This type of post is exactly what this forum is about: baseball cards and the hidden gems that exist out in the open.

I look forward to following this thread and contributing what I can.

[Steve D]

I'm a member of Ancestry.com, and have been doing quite a bit of research on my own family over the past few months.

I just did a little digging, and from what I can tell, it looks like Capote's father was Arch Persons IV, born in Matanzas, Cuba in 1897 and died in 1981. If this is true, then he was too young to be playing in the SL in 1909.

His father however, appears to have been Arch Persons III, born in 1866, and died in 1917. It is possible, looking at the card, that the Arch Persons on the card, was Capote's grandfather (the picture does appear to be an older man). It is also conceivable that Arch III, if he was a baseball player, could've played baseball in Cuba, which would match with Arch IV's birthplace.

I've also found census records for Capote's mother, but nothing connecting her with Arch Persons yet.

It's too late for me to continue digging tonight, as I have to get to bed, but I'll do some more digging on Ancestry.com tomorrow evening and see what I come up with.

Steve

[Cardboard Junkie]

If you search Truman Capotes birth certificate it is recorded that his father's name was Julian A. Persons. dave

[brickyardkennedy]

According to this bio of Truman's grandmother Mabel K. Persons, Truman;s grandfather was a unerversity professor. Not likely he went on to be a professional ballplayer:

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/st...20792490.shtml

Although grandma Mabel, according to the article, did live for a time in Havana, with her two youngest sons, all three of her sons appear to have been born in Alabama, including her eldest son who was Tru's father. Tru's mother Lilly, in later years, married a Cuban businessman, Joseph Garcia Capote who adopted Tru and whose name Tru took, thus likely explaining the erroneous claim that Tru's father was born in Cuba.

[frankbmd]

Interest in this thread amazes me. I think we will get an answer.

A few other things I recall from my prior work. Arch Persons, the father was much older than his mother, who married at 19 to escape her life in Alabama using Persons as a ticket to a better life. Persons, however, was not the right ticket. Relatively well heeled but a bit of a drifter. Both the player and the father had family ties to Monroeville, Alabama.

I like the grandfather theory and was not aware of the Arch III and Arch IV references. If the 1897 date is correct, then Arch IV would have been a 27 year old when Truman was born. Arch III could have fathered Arch III in 1897 and still played ball in the 1908-1912 period.

Thanks for your interest and help. Hopefully we can turn this from speculation to a verifiable connection between Persons and Capote. Or not.

[Steve D]

I've done some more digging, and I can't find anything connecting either the father or grandfather to baseball.

I also found the following photos at http://www.attheplate.com/wcbl/index.html, which is a website devoted to Western Canada Baseball:

According to baseball-reference.com, Archie Persons, in addition to playing for Montgomery of the Southern Association from 1908-1909, also played for the Bassano Boosters in Canada in 1912.

Looking at these two photos, along with the lack of any corroborating evidence to the contrary, makes me more inclined to believe Archie Persons the baseball player was NOT either Archie, Arch or Archulus Persons who was related to Truman Capote.

Steve

[Steve D]

The thread about F. Scott Fitzgerald got me thinking about this one.

I just did some more research on Ancestry.com, and it appears that if there is a connection between Archie Persons (the BB player) and Truman Capote, it is a distant one.

It looks like Truman Capote's ancestry is Alabama-Georgia-North Carolina going back to the 1760s. Archie Persons (the BB player), was born in Arkansaw, Wisconsin in 1881. His ancestry is Wisconsin-New York-New Jersey-Pennsylvania going back to the 1720s.

I did find an interesting connection however, with Archie Persons. He's listed in the 1900 US Census, as a cadet at West Point. Apparently, he was a cadet for 2 years there (did not graduate). One of his classmates in 1900 was none other than General Douglas MacArthur. After Archie left West Point, he went back home and enrolled at the University of Wisconsin, finally graduating in 1906.

Steve

[familytoad]

Interesting timing that this thread bubbled to the top given the death of Harper Lee in Alabama, announced this morning.
Her friendship with Truman Capote was well known in social and literary circles.
Since I don't travel in either of those circles, I heard it on the radio

So the baseball card world might have struck out with Arch's connection to Capote, but it's still a fun speculation.

Getting to know the old players is part of the joy of collecting. (And truth be told, one of the reasons I don't collect T206 but am fascinated by T205)

Anyway, thanks for the topic and any ensuing continued conversation on it!

[drmiraculous]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I am interested in not only the nuances of the cards I collect, but also about the nuances and stories of the players. Arch Persons has a T206 card, but this still may be OT. He played for Montgomery in 1908 and 1909. He was out of baseball by 1912.

In 1924 Truman Capote was born in New Orleans. His father was not around for long in Truman's life, but his father's name was Arch Persons, from a "prominent" Alabama family. Truman spent a portion of his childhood with cousins in Monroeville, Alabama. I have wondered whether our Arch Persons SL is the father of Truman Capote, but have been unable to verify this.

The dates are plausible, the geography works and the name isn't all that common. I cited some reference material I had found awhile back and asked the Library of Congress for help. The person who answered my request seemed to care less in his response, which was not helpful.

Is there anyone else on the Board, who has any information on Persons the ballplayer that may be helpful in resolving this issue?

Not sure whether this has been discussed here before or whether it belongs by the water cooler, but I decided to toss it up here and see what happens.

Sorry to necropost here but I also wondered about this guy and did a hefty bit of research on him for a piece on my blog - tl/dr is that Arch Persons in the T206 set was moonlighting as Archie PeArson on the west coast, allowing him to jump contracts easily while holding two baseball jobs a year most seasons.

I was curious about him because most of the other T206 guys from the Montgomery team are pretty much minor league veterans, but there wasn't much info on Arch available.

[Casey2296]

Solid 8 year bump and a fascinating story.

[drmiraculous]

Yeah I'm a little late to this discussion! But I'm a rookie here and glad to find I wasn't the only one who wondered who this guy was and have something to add to the convo!

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by drmiraculous

Yeah I'm a little late to this discussion! But I'm a rookie here and glad to find I wasn't the only one who wondered who this guy was and have something to add to the convo!

Welcome, you won't find a greater more knowledgeable group of folks.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I would try the Baseball HOF before the library of congress on something like this.

[toppcat]

There is a SABR-adjacent site that has 99% of all the old data/bio card records for players in Organized Ball entered/scanned in. I'm not sure what the cutoff is in terms of earliest and latest dates but it goes back very far. The link is here and I've copied in Persons available info below:

https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll3



Display Name
Archie Persons
Card Group
Players Archived
Name Details
First: Archie Last: Persons Given: Archie
Career Began
1908
Career Ended
1912
Baseball Reference
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=person001arc
Name LastFirst
Persons Archie L.
Player Contract Info
1. Name Position Bats Throws
2. Persons, Archie L.
3. Born-Place Date Married
4. Address Height Weight
5. Teams Played With
6. Little Rock 1909-Omaha 1910-rel. 7/10-San Anton
7. io 1911-rel. to Oklahoma City 5/11-rel. 7/11-
Published Career
1908 Montgomery | Southern Association
1909 1. Montgomery | Southern Association
1909 2. Little Rock | Southern Association
1911 1. Oklahoma City | Texas
1911 2. San Antonio | Texas
1912 Bassano | Western Canada
Citation
The Sporting News Player Contract Cards, ScanID: 1035001325 Archie L. Persons plus URL of this page.
ScanID
1035001325
SABR PersonID
2019557e
BBRef RegisterID
person001arc
Box Number
35
Box Label
PENYER_PORREVECCHIO
Scan Set
PERSI_PESEK
Scan Sequence
25
Archival Scan File Name
PERSI_PESEK_025.tif
Cards
1
Sides
1
Rights
Copyright 2019 by The Society for American Baseball Research, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[Yoda]

I wonder if Arch ever enjoyed, "Breakfast at Tiffanies."

[drmiraculous]

Originally Posted by toppcat

There is a SABR-adjacent site that has 99% of all the old data/bio card records for players in Organized Ball entered/scanned in. I'm not sure what the cutoff is in terms of earliest and latest dates but it goes back very far. The link is here and I've copied in Persons available info below:

https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll3



Display Name
Archie Persons
Card Group
Players Archived
Name Details
First: Archie Last: Persons Given: Archie
Career Began
1908
Career Ended
1912
Baseball Reference
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=person001arc
Name LastFirst
Persons Archie L.
Player Contract Info
1. Name Position Bats Throws
2. Persons, Archie L.
3. Born-Place Date Married
4. Address Height Weight
5. Teams Played With
6. Little Rock 1909-Omaha 1910-rel. 7/10-San Anton
7. io 1911-rel. to Oklahoma City 5/11-rel. 7/11-
Published Career
1908 Montgomery | Southern Association
1909 1. Montgomery | Southern Association
1909 2. Little Rock | Southern Association
1911 1. Oklahoma City | Texas
1911 2. San Antonio | Texas
1912 Bassano | Western Canada
Citation
The Sporting News Player Contract Cards, ScanID: 1035001325 Archie L. Persons plus URL of this page.
ScanID
1035001325
SABR PersonID
2019557e
BBRef RegisterID
person001arc
Box Number
35
Box Label
PENYER_PORREVECCHIO
Scan Set
PERSI_PESEK
Scan Sequence
25
Archival Scan File Name
PERSI_PESEK_025.tif
Cards
1
Sides
1
Rights
Copyright 2019 by The Society for American Baseball Research, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

This leaves out his time in Oskaloosa, Nashville, Sacramento and Omaha as referenced on Bref.com. Persons was with two teams in 07, 09, 1910, 1911 and three in 1912, mostly at level A and B, so he was in the top tier of the minors most seasons. Prior to 2017 Persons had two Bref.com pages, one for Arch Persons and one for Archie Pearsons.