Bill Mastro and SCD Hobby Predictions

[Keith H. Thompson]

This is only going to work if I can attach a picture, but I thought it was interesting reading in a January 9, 1998 issue of Sports Collectors Digest at the time and thought so again today. The article refers to events of the year 1973 and finishes with the thought -- "try to picture what the hobby might look like in 2023"

In 1973 Bill Mastro purchased a T206 Wagner card for $1,500. The Trader Speaks is quoted as saying that he (Mastro) was "perhaps the youngest collector ever to have assembled T205, T206 and T207 sets."

[samosa4u]

Iiiiiiiitttttt's Wednesday Night Quiz time!!!!!

Alright, why hasn't this thread gotten any replies?

a) Because nobody here cares about vintage baseball cards
b) Because nobody can read the damn thing!
c) Because Americans are too busy watching Copa America
d) None of the above

[NiceDocter]

I would pick “b” for me

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

I would pick “b” for me

[Keith H. Thompson]

again for my poor presentation of an obscure subject, at best Leon helped me with the picture, but there is only so much he can do.

I also confess that I did it because young collectors to the Hobby probably have negative thoughts re Bill, but he was really a force in the hobby, and his auctions were gold mines. Dealers and collectors, whose opinions I respect, tell me that he treated his partners badly, but I'm used to that on many facets of life.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

again for my poor presentation of an obscure subject, at best Leon helped me with the picture, but there is only so much he can do.

I also confess that I did it because young collectors to the Hobby probably have negative thoughts re Bill, but he was really a force in the hobby, and his auctions were gold mines. Dealers and collectors, whose opinions I respect, tell me that he treated his partners badly, but I'm used to that on many facets of life.

Send me a message and I'll help you put up a large scan here. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would like to read it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

I also confess that I did it because young collectors to the Hobby probably have negative thoughts re Bill, but he was really a force in the hobby, and his auctions were gold mines. Dealers and collectors, whose opinions I respect, tell me that he treated his partners badly, but I'm used to that on many facets of life.

Yeah I can't believe that young collectors have negative thoughts on a criminal fraudster who treaded people badly. That's just, uh, terrible. They need to be educated on how criminal fraudsters in the hobby are sometimes great because they sold expensive cards amidst all that criminal fraud.

[oldjudge]

Bill was a force in the hobby. He ran the first major sports auction and before that handled some of the top hobby pieces. I always had a good relationship with Bill and valued his friendship. He's done his time for his crimes and I wish him a long and happy life with his wonderful family going forward.

[BioCRN]

There's a lot of people in the hobby who prefer to remain on the outskirts of the hobby because of the people in the hobby.

I'm not a market mover or market definer. I'll never play in that realm even with a low-6-digit value collection and spare money to go bigger. Some people spend the value of my collection on a single auction, or single card. They're the makers and movers.

That said...

Since I was a young collector in the single-digits of age, I've received generous education/support/freebies from dealers + collectors. I've also been ripped off, lied to, and otherwise hustled by the peers of the ones being reasonable dealing with me.

More than that, I've experienced "both sides" playing me (or attempting) from the same person. I'm not talking about stuff like a dealer low-balling me or charging too much. I'm talking about legit bad stuff, dishonesty, and fraud.

There's more good than bad, but I've always been shocked at how many totally above the board dealers/collectors will tolerate fraud and out-classed hustling from their peers.

I think a lot of the legit good ones realize how much slime is in the hobby and accept it as part of the hobby, and your own due diligence needs to be applied to too many movers/makers in the hobby.

I'm not disgruntled. I'm still in it nearly 40 years after I started collecting pictures of baseball dudes, but it's kept me on the hobby edges and I don't have a problem with it. It is what it is and it seems it's been that way since before I knew what a baseball card was.

[jcmtiger]

[QUOTE=oldjudge;2445554]Bill was a force in the hobby. He ran the first major sports auction and before that handled some of the top hobby pieces. I always had a good relationship with Bill and valued his friendship. He's done his time for his crimes and I wish him a long and happy life with his wonderful family going forward.[/QUOTE +1, Me too. Met Bil in he 70’s. At the Plymouth Michigan show. Sold & purchase many items thruhis auctions later on. ]

[perezfan]

Yes, he shilled his auctions, and yes, he hand-cut the Wagner. I acquired some of my best pieces from Mastro and Mastro-West, and spent lots of money with them. My name was on the "shilled list" when it came out many years ago, and I was not happy about it (to say the least).

Mastro was aptly punished via our legal system and served his time. Law Enforcement successfully went after the "top dog". Mastro was undisputedly the biggest in the hobby at the time. They made an example of him, and rightfully so.

But I know for a fact that other dealers, auction houses, etc. did the same exact things as Mastro (some to a greater extent; some lesser) with no negative ramifications at all. Outside of LOTG, I have never felt comfortable enough to leave ceiling bids with any of these "Titans" of the hobby". There has always been a sleaze factor, and it seems there always will be.

With time and experience you can limit the number of times you get played, but you can never completely expect to escape it. Just something you need to factor in if you collect this stuff.

[Rich Klein]

Seeing this makes me wish that SOMEONE who has access to a good scanner and a good hobby library would put on line in a readable format ALL the material from:

Baseball Hobby News

The Trader Speaks

All the Beckett Magazines

Sports Collectors Digest

Baseball Card News

Baseball Card/Sport Card Magazine (The Krause magazine)

As many of the pre-1980 hobby pubs as one can find

Any "legit" reference tomes I forgot in magazines and then books as well

That would truly be a blessing for all concerned and I'd wager the board members would all appreciate that as well

Rich

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I just go into auctions expecting to be shilled. It's surely a reflection of the sad and pathetic, scummy side of the industry, isn't it? Yet it saves me a lot of grief and helps me sleep better instead of staying up until 2:00 a.m. to try to save a few bucks. While I don't condone such garbage, I needed a healthier approach to bidding. Therefore, I just plug in what would have been my max "buy" price if I was making an offer to somebody for the same item(s). Then, I go to bed. If I find I've been blown out of the water upon waking up the next morning, so be it. If I discover that I'm always paying my max bid with the same auction house, it's pretty easy to discern who the scumbags are. At least the really greedy and dumb ones who can't leave a bid increment on the table to appear like they're not always shilling.

But, to be fair, I do not feel that every auction house does this. It's been proven to me by my own bidding. Now, for those of you not fully versed in such matters, you can have some fun reading the fine print in some auction catalogs. There are at least a couple of very major players in the auction industry who specifically state that they condone in-house bidding during their auctions! Yep. Really. As long as they say so in all the tiny lettering, I guess that's apparently fine and dandy.

[Exhibitman]

He's a crook; there is no "but".

[ALBB]

Id like to read it..if possible. Might be interesting to see what his thinking was back then

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes, he shilled his auctions, and yes, he hand-cut the Wagner. I acquired some of my best pieces from Mastro and Mastro-West, and spent lots of money with them. My name was on the "shilled list" when it came out many years ago, and I was not happy about it (to say the least).

Mastro was aptly punished via our legal system and served his time. Law Enforcement successfully went after the "top dog". Mastro was undisputedly the biggest in the hobby at the time. They made an example of him, and rightfully so.

But I know for a fact that other dealers, auction houses, etc. did the same exact things as Mastro (some to a greater extent; some lesser) with no negative ramifications at all. Outside of LOTG, I have never felt comfortable enough to leave ceiling bids with any of these "Titans" of the hobby". There has always been a sleaze factor, and it seems there always will be.

With time and experience you can limit the number of times you get played, but you can never completely expect to escape it. Just something you need to factor in if you collect this stuff.

Excellent post! I agree with everything you wrote!

Just recently, I was chatting with one respected member on this forum about one auctioneer who always bids on his items. I am pretty sure others know about this as well, but nobody has ever called him out. Why? Well, who wants to go to war with the guys who run this hobby? That wouldn't be a very wise thing to do. It's easy to go after Mastro because he's not running things anymore.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Excellent post! I agree with everything you wrote!

Just recently, I was chatting with one respected member on this forum about one auctioneer who always bids on his items. I am pretty sure others know about this as well, but nobody has ever called him out. Why? Well, who wants to go to war with the guys who run this hobby? That wouldn't be a very wise thing to do. It's easy to go after Mastro because he's not running things anymore.

You should state who is doing this alongside the proof.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Seeing this makes me wish that SOMEONE who has access to a good scanner and a good hobby library would put on line in a readable format ALL the...

I have a great scanner, but not that great of a hobby library.

[TCMA]

Photo from an early 70’s newspaper article showing Mastro, my father (left), and Honus. Caption mentions the $1500 Wagner also referenced by SCD in original post.




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[Cliff Bowman]

Here's the text:

It's also the last year Topps would issue cards by series, a practice that had resulted over the years in one or more series, usually the final one, being distributed in decidedly smaller numbers than their earlier counterparts. Letters in the various hobby magazines and newsletters had for years noted the problems, with many pointing out that, in some broad regions of the country, series were frequently combined, with a region receiving the first and second series together, third and fourth, etc.

But in what might be considered a forerunner to the "chase" card, the company did include a set of unnumbered team checklist cards with facsimile autographs on the the front that would, over time, turn out to be hard to find and ultimately expensive.

And the only competition nationally that Topps had in 1973, if you want to call it that, came from Kellogg's, which issued cards included in cereal boxes for the fourth straight year. Topps did produce football, basketball, and hockey sets in 1973, but in those days baseball was king, easily dominating the new card market and capturing an inordinate amount of space in any hobby publication. Vintage material from the "other three" sports was quite visible in display and classified ads, frequently with an emphasis on yearbooks and even college media guides and the like.

Perhaps by way of simply reminding Topps that they were still around, Fleer produced a 40-card "Famous Feats" set consisting of the drawings of artist Robert Laughlin. Laughlin had issued such sets for several years, but previously on his own. His linking with Fleer in 1973 (and in 1971 with a World Series set) no doubt brought broader exposure to a man who had been producing and distributing his own sets as far back as 1961.

The choice of "old timers" subject matter was dictated by the continuing litigation wrangle with Topps, since Fleer could not use active players, all of whom were under exclusive contract with Topps.

Collectors who wanted to buy the "Famous Feats" could do so directly from Laughlin for $2.50, perhaps the price of a really breathtaking 1959 Mantle card. And beyond that and munching corn flakes to get Kellogg's cards, there wasn't much else. But there was something on the horizon that would effectively help to link the hobby of 1973 to the 1980's.

One of the noted collectors of the time, Mike Aronstein, and Tom Collier, formed The Card Memorabilia Associates (TCMA) in 1973, and promptly produced a "League Leaders" set that would prove to be the first of dozens more to come. Over the next decade the company would produce a myriad of different and unusual sets, always of retired and thoroughly deceased players, frequently utilizing formats like all-time great teams or players from a particular era.

Though they couldn't have known it at the time, the cards played an enormous role in sustaining a hobby from its earliest days to the arrival in 1981 of Donruss and a full-fledged Fleer (try saying that three times quickly). Add in literally dozens of national sports magazine carried listings for the TCMA cards every year, giving long-time collectors something to pursue once their Topps sets were put together (not too tough), and also opened up the growing hobby to thousands of new collectors whose arrival would signal the explosion in the 1990's.

The TCMA sets would ultimately receive a good deal of attention in the hobby press of the day, but notably absent from those earliest publications was much of a memorabilia presence. While auctions were a major part of those pioneering magazines and also a prominent part of some of the earliest shows, the material offered was almost exclusively paper related. There was a considerable autograph presence but they were commonly found on baseball cards or index cards, and again, frequently in lots of multiple players, even multiple Hall Of Famers. The expansion of the memorabilia market of game used and signed material was still quite a few years off.

Still, 1973 was a pretty good beginning. Nobody on hand at the time could have predicted what the next quarter-century could bring, and if you don't believe that, try picturing what the hobby will look like in 2023.

[TCMA]

Cliff, thanks for posting that! Interestingly, there was also a TCMA/Donruss connection in 1981 as TCMA was the exclusive distributor of ‘81 Donruss to the hobby. I still have some interesting ‘81 Donruss production proofs here and correspondence between my dad and Stewart Lyman, president of Donruss.


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[JollyElm]

Try picturing what the hobby will look like in 2023 2024?? Done...

monopolyrichguy.jpg

[Rich Klein]

It is Tom Collier not Tim Collier. Just an FYI

Rich

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

It is Tom Collier not Tim Collier. Just an FYI

Rich

Corrected, there were a couple of words I couldn’t make out so I guessed at them so that might not be the only mistake.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Try picturing what the hobby will look like in 2023 2024?? Done...

Attachment 627283

Yes, it's a hobby for the well-heeled millionaires. Who else could afford to play?

But, every now and then, I get thrown a bone or table scrap to allow me to pretend.

[Johnny630]

Where will the Hobby be in 2044...Predictions ?? hey it's only 20 years away.

[Keith H. Thompson]

Tom Collier

[parkplace33]

2044, I can’t even imagine. I am sure prices will continue to go up desirable cards. More auctions, more vaults? The possibilities are endless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Where will the Hobby be in 2044...Predictions ?? hey it's only 20 years away.

All new cards will be digital only. Counterfeits of significant vintage cards will be rampant.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by TCMA

Photo from an early 70’s newspaper article showing Mastro, my father (left), and Honus. Caption mentions the $1500 Wagner also referenced by SCD in original post.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's Bill on the right? Really? He sure cleaned up well over the years! And is that the famous Wagner he cut from a sheet, or some other?

[Peter_Spaeth]

different

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Try picturing what the hobby will look like in 2023 2024?? Done...

Attachment 627283

Pass GO and win a RC of Babe Ruth. Now how do I get to GO again?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All new cards will be digital only.

This is why I believe there is a future for NFTs

[oldjudge]

If in the future all new cards are digital, what happens to grading companies? At some point most of the “old” cards that need to be graded will have been graded.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This is why I believe there is a future for NFTs

Well now is certainly the time to buy!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If in the future all new cards are digital, what happens to grading companies? At some point most of the “old” cards that need to be graded will have been graded.

New advances in doctoring will keep the break out, work on, and resubmit game going for quite some time. Every card will be an 8 or better. The card cleaning line of products will expand to recoloring, trimming, crease removal (well we are sort of there already) and corner rebuilding, it will all be natural and undetectable and people will zealously defend it to the death.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well now is certainly the time to buy!

lol

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well now is certainly the time to buy!

Seriously, keep an eye out for one of those apes/monkeys - I think now could be a decent time to take flyer

[JollyElm]

Trying to even remotely accurately predict the future is beyond the ability of human beings. If it wasn't, then every single movie from long ago that showed what the future was going to look like would've had every person carrying a little cell phone around, but none of them did.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Trying to even remotely accurately predict the future is beyond the ability of human beings. If it wasn't, then every single movie from long ago that showed what the future was going to look like would've had every person carrying a little cell phone around, but none of them did.

Get Smart came pretty close with the shoe phone. But obviously their glimpse into the future failed to identify the correct appendage. And if I remember correctly the phone was rotary dial.

But please note the name of the sitcom...I imagine one of the working titles for the show was Get Smart Phone.


Brian (going back under my Cone of Silence)

[brianp-beme]

I like that the caption begins with "Believe it or not" concerning the $1500 purchase price (in 1973). Of course our modern day minds automatically convert what was supposed to be considered an outrageously expensive cost for a piece of cardboard to "Holy can of sardines, only $1500!!!!

Brian (the Cone of Silence is once again malfunctioning)

Originally Posted by TCMA

Photo from an early 70’s newspaper article showing Mastro, my father (left), and Honus. Caption mentions the $1500 Wagner also referenced by SCD in original post.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Get Smart came pretty close with the shoe phone. But obviously their glimpse into the future failed to identify the correct appendage. And if I remember correctly the phone was rotary dial.

But please note the name of the sitcom...I imagine one of the working titles for the show was Get Smart Phone.


Brian (going back under my Cone of Silence)

Star Trek Communicators were a pretty damn good match.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If in the future all new cards are digital, what happens to grading companies? At some point most of the “old” cards that need to be graded will have been graded.

Perhaps the only “positive” among all the predictions here.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

New advances in doctoring will keep the break out, work on, and resubmit game going for quite some time. Every card will be an 8 or better. The card cleaning line of products will expand to recoloring, trimming, crease removal (well we are sort of there already) and corner rebuilding, it will all be natural and undetectable and people will zealously defend it to the death.

Sportcards and wine: The only two things that improve their condition the older they get.

[Fred]

Were there any predictions of TPGs and altered cards? Shill bidding a-holes that would get sentenced to prison time? Poor Bill became the poster child for that and you have to figure he wasn't the only one (just the highest $$ AH). Yeah, lots of crappy stuff. What positive stuff can be said? Any predictions about cardboard millionaires? Oh yeah, that pretty much screwed the hobbyist that were trying to collect for the fun of it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

This is why I believe there is a future for NFTs

Is this a joke? I don't see a smiley?
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Leon

Is this a joke? I don't see a smiley?
.

Not a joke

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Not a joke

I've got some pet rocks, interested?

PS...I wore a Mastro Fine Auctions T shirt to the Dallas Card Show last week and no one noticed...
.

[Rhotchkiss]

No. I don’t think there is much of a future for pet rocks. But, given how everything will become more digitized and less fungible, I do think NFTs, maybe in some different form, will have value in the future. And if that happens, the earliest versions will be valuable. I am not talking about video clips, like when you could buy some Zion dunk. But more like digital cards, or artwork. Who knows, it will be what it be.