Walter Johnson Vs. Christy Mathewson

[Belfast1933]

Two quick adds here… first, if you haven’t seen “Fastball” as noted here multiple times, do yourself a favor and check it out. It’s the best baseball documentary I’ve ever seen. Great video of WaJo talking pitching jib-jab to a ball boy. It’s old-timey gold.

And how about this for context? Walter Johnson has 110 career shutouts. Jacob Degrom has 84 career wins.

(Great thread - and yet somehow, we still find a grouchy grandpa on here yelling at the clouds for some unknown reason!)

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Greatest player from Kansas.

Is that one of the ones sold by Doug Allen's wife on eBay?

[vintagerookies51]

Records in 1910 vs today...

1 Mile Run: 4:15 --> 3:47
100 m dash: 10.5 s --> 9.58s
High Jump: 1.98 m --> 2.45 m
Shotput: 15.54 m --> 23.56 m

With a century of improvements to training, technique, mechanics, etc. of course athletes are going to be better today. But alas, the oldheads of N54 have proven that the only athletic feat in the world that people have not improved at over the years is throwing a baseball because you could hear a noise as a WaJo pitch flew by.

I am a firm believer in that you need to compare how they dominated their era, though, so looking at stats it's hard to not call Walter Johnson the GOAT.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

Records in 1910 vs today...

1 Mile Run: 4:15 --> 3:47
100 m dash: 10.5 s --> 9.58s
High Jump: 1.98 m --> 2.45 m
Shotput: 15.54 m --> 23.56 m

With a century of improvements to training, technique, mechanics, etc. of course athletes are going to be better today. But alas, the oldheads of N54 have proven that the only athletic feat in the world that people have not improved at over the years is throwing a baseball because you could hear a noise as a WaJo pitch flew by.

I am a firm believer in that you need to compare how they dominated their era, though, so looking at stats it's hard to not call Walter Johnson the GOAT.

I agree that it's likely Walter Johnson and other pitchers of his era were not throwing as hard as pitchers consistently are today. However, there have been posts in this thread also talking about Nolan Ryan and Bob Feller throwing around 107-108 MPH. Are those to be believed? If so, they are both faster than what anyone has been measured at in recent times even though they were 50-70 years ago.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I forget who it was, but there's a video out there of a pitching scout/coach that works with MLB pitchers to add velocity to their fastballs. He looks at their mechanics and makes minor adjustment after minor adjustment to add mph to their arms. This knowledge has worked its way down the system over the years, and now minor league guys and highschool arms are learning how to contort their bodies to attain maximum velocity. Hip flexor workouts, oblique exercises, deep lunges launching off the mound, wrist movements, angle of approach, it all adds up. Not to mention guys are just bigger and stronger today. But this guy was commenting on some old black and white footage of early HOFers and was asked how many mph he thought he could add to their fastballs based on their mechanics, and the guy literally started laughing and then said, "I don't know. A lot. 10-15? Maybe more probably." For whatever that's worth, I believe him. When I watch old footage, it really is hilarious watching these guys "pitch". There's just no way in hell those guys were throwing real heat. Not with those mechanics, and not when they're out there night after night pitching complete game after complete game. Remember, these guys were a decade removed from when the hitters could still request where they wanted the ball to be thrown. Half of these pitchers were just out there playing catch. The game was played on the base paths. It just wasn't even remotely the same game as today.

Why would it be a surprise to find out that pitchers throw harder now than they did then? Is there any example in sports of the athletes of 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago, having superior skills than those of today, with its better conditioning, training, facilities, nutrition, working conditions, etc. That wouldn't make sense. So you can't really compare across generations, just take what they did in their time and try to judge how good they were compared to their contemporaries to attempt to single out the GOAT. I remember in my youth in the 1960s when Sammy Baugh was generally considered the greatest football player of all time because he had put up such a great record in so many different areas, but mostly at quarterback, for 15 years when very few NFL guys played close to that long. And while that should still earn him consideration these many years later, it would be laughable to argue that he'd be anywhere near as good on the field today as the worst backup QB. As for pitching complete games, what do you think the hitters of yesteryear were doing while the pitchers were cruising at half speed through their games as you suggest? Taking it easy, too, so they could make their contributions to the complete game and longevity records? Hell, no, and it wasn't like that at all. Pitchers knew how to pitch back then, well into the 70s and 80s, when fireball guys like Nolan Ryan were taking half their careers to discover that you don't have to put everything you have on the ball all the time to go deep and win. It's call pitching, as opposed to throwing, and thowbacks like Spahn, Palmer, Blyleven, etc., could still be examples to the young guys if they would pay attention. Oh, they throw so hard today, sure, but only for an inning or two, and only for a year or two before they need Tommy John. I'm actually convinced that at some point, every aspiring pro pitcher will get the surgery preemptively as soon as they are drafted. Having said all this, I am absolutely convinced that Walter Johnson was the exception to any comparison between today's pitchers and 100 years ago. His mechanics were so unique, the tremendous power so clearly generated more from his back and legs rather than his arm, I defy any pitching coach to tell me they could have made him any faster or improved his stamina, endurance, or longevity one bit. I don't believe it. I've been asked many times how hard I think he threw the ball, and I answer 100 for sure when he cranked it, maybe a MPH or two more on occasion. Big, strong, guy, even for today, and consider that in his peak years he had no out pitch--none at all! Just fastball after fastball. And with that great control, and his gentle nature, the hitters knew exactly where the ball was going to be, and they still couldn't hit it. Here comes another one, disappearing behind his back, then sweeping out of third base across the plate with what Cobb called a "hiss," and others described as a buzz or a whoosh. Good luck. Johnson was a freak of nature, look at his right arm in the old photos, he could scratch his knee standing straight up. See how close you get. One anecdote of the many I encountered in the research for my book: When Johnson arrived in D.C. from Idaho at the age of 19, Washington manager Joe Cantillon let him rest for a day before having him take the mound in batting practice before a game against the White Sox. Mind you, nobody had seen him throw, just Cliff Blankenship, who only played catch with Johnson in a field next to his boarding house in Weiser before "signing" him. The first batter, Jim Delehanty of the famous baseball family, takes the first pitch and starts walking back to the bench. Cantillon, anxious to see what the veteran Delehanty thinks of the kid, yells out "Where do you think you're going?" Delehanty continues on his way and replies, "I'm not going back there until I see how good his control is!" True story, as reported in the papers the next day. I don't believe these hitters today would be any less terrified to see and hear that ball or have any better luck that those 100 years ago. In fact, at the rate they strike out today, he would have finished his career with over 7,000 Ks, making Ryan's total look meager by comparison.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Who here associates something with the number 1.12? If that doesn't, how about 1.12 ERA??? Now you're thinking Bob Gibson's 1968 season. I'm a Cardinals fan, and saw Gibson pitch several times, including game 7 of the 1964 World Series. As much of a fan as I am of Mr. Gibson, I'm aware that Walter's 1913 ERA of 1.14 would have been less than Bob Gibson's, IF he had been throwing his best stuff at the end of the 1913 season. The Athletics had clenched the pennant in 1913, Walter pitched in a game where he grooved a few pitches for some of his friends, on the opposing team, the game was a light-hearted affair for both teams, I think a coach or two may have gotten an at bat. It could have been the last game of the season, Washington won, about everyone pitched, Walter gave up 2 runs recording 0 outs in a late inning. You can read about it in "Baseball's Big Train," by Henry Thomas, a gentleman who knows a right smart about baseball. A singularly knowledgeable baseball scholar. If you haven't acquired a copy of that book and read it, you should stop reading this and order a copy of that book. Back to Bob Gibson, what he did on the mound in 1968 was powerful. But he'd have fallen a point or two short of surpassing what Walter did in 1913, IF Walter had either been competitive, or simply stayed out of that game that was a fun time for the players.

Thanks so much for the props, Frank, very much appreciated. And what a strange thing, for Walter to have lost such a significant record to what at the time must have seemed such an innocent and playful event. Would he care? Maybe a little, but not much, I don't think. He certainly wouldn't dwell on it.

[ksfarmboy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Is that one of the ones sold by Doug Allen's wife on eBay?

Yes it was Hank.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Yes it was Hank.

I got one, too. Pure serendipity except for the fact that I was looking during the few days they were up. There were five of them made, not sure how many sold, but they are really gorgeous.

[FrankWakefield]

Hank, how tall are they?

The remind me of the Walter's likenesses at Nationals Park.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Hank, how tall are they? The remind me of the Walter's likenesses at Nationals Park.

They are about a foot and a half tall, made of bronze. Doug Allen, former president of Legendary Auctions (the old Mastro outfit after he got busted), had a mold made from one of the 50 plaster versions created after Walter's great victory in the '24 Series and had five of the bronzes made. When Doug went to jail, his wife put at least two of these up on eBay with a starting bid of $1,000. I was the only bidder on the one I got, and to this day I can't understand why, given the striking quality of this beautiful statuette. The statue at Nats Park, by the way, is kind of grotesque, in my opinion.

[Seven]

A lively discussion and debate for sure. From a collecting standpoint, I find Mathewson slightly more interesting. The Mystique and aura around him is hard to beat. Both were fine pitchers in their day, but I believe Johnson gets the edge. More dominant for a longer stretch of time.

Now, on the subject of the debate concerning Johnson's fastball or quite frankly the athletic ability of anyone playing any sport back in those days; Just like when studying history, when looking at this issue we have to compare them relative to their peers. However fast the "Big Train" was throwing, it certainly does not compare to how fast Gerrit Cole tops out on the gun.

But Johnson pitched in a different time. He was arguably the best, of his era. Whatever his fastball measured at, was probably the fastest at that time. And adding that context he's arguably the best. All of these players from back in the day didn't have the strict diets, access to modern medicine, training and equipment. They worked jobs in the offseason, took trains with sleeper cars across the country to pay games. All things that the pampered athletes of today couldn't even dream of.

I'll say this much, in my rankings, Johnson is certainly up there as one of the greatest pitchers of all time, I would only ever consider putting Satchel Paige above him.

[Leon]

Very nice synopsis. I am going with Johnson as being the better pitcher but there is a lot of love for Christy too!

Originally Posted by Seven

A lively discussion and debate for sure. From a collecting standpoint, I find Mathewson slightly more interesting. The Mystique and aura around him is hard to beat. Both were fine pitchers in their day, but I believe Johnson gets the edge. More dominant for a longer stretch of time.

Now, on the subject of the debate concerning Johnson's fastball or quite frankly the athletic ability of anyone playing any sport back in those days; Just like when studying history, when looking at this issue we have to compare them relative to their peers. However fast the "Big Train" was throwing, it certainly does not compare to how fast Gerrit Cole tops out on the gun.

But Johnson pitched in a different time. He was arguably the best, of his era. Whatever his fastball measured at, was probably the fastest at that time. And adding that context he's arguably the best. All of these players from back in the day didn't have the strict diets, access to modern medicine, training and equipment. They worked jobs in the offseason, took trains with sleeper cars across the country to pay games. All things that the pampered athletes of today couldn't even dream of.

I'll say this much, in my rankings, Johnson is certainly up there as one of the greatest pitchers of all time, I would only ever consider putting Satchel Paige above him.

[clydepepper]

I'd definitely go with WaJo. Just ask Hank Thomas...

Here's one of my 'Double Walters' (Thanks again, Leon)...

1923 WG7 Walter Mails Game Walter Johnson SGC 80.jpg


and one of my 'EXes' (have no idea if he lives in Texas)

1904 Allegheny Card Co Christy Mathewson PSA-5.jpg

[ValKehl]

My favorite WaJo cards are his real-photo cards with scarce/rare ad backs, such as these:

[jetsetr1]

Walter Johnson. Don't think there is a top 10 list on the planet where he isn't #1. Can't go wrong with either, they're on the pitching Mt. Rushmore. Fairly recent pickups of both below.

Also have Mathewson's T201 Mecca Double PSA 5 & S74 Silk Turkey SGC 5. Thank you if any sellers were from Net54.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'd definitely go with WaJo. Just ask Hank Thomas...

Ha! I'm the last guy (or gal) to ask!

[Svabinsky78]

The only Johnson "card" I own. It's not a playing day card, it's his manager card from the 1931 Senators photo pack, but I still love it. A great shot of the game's elder statesman. Truly a giant.

[Leon]

Some sweet cards and items in this thread. (excuse Alexander for photo-bombing)

[brianp-beme]

Matty wins out, because Johnson's Senators didn't make the E91 team cut.

And Christy's last name looks sophisticated with the extra 't' in it. What fun would Walter's last name be if spelled Johnston? Neither fun nor sophisticated.

Brian

[Snapolit1]

Matty was just damm cool.

[sammythunder]

Matty for the win! However, I am a Matty collector, so it comes as no surprise!

[4815162342]

A WaJo fan ripped this card in half, and then a Matty fan Sweet-Capped it back together again.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jacksons]

All of these guys were incredible. They were all kings of the mound in their time, and they did it with no MRIs, no trainers, no synthetic and breathable uniforms, no 4-5 days off, no bullpens, no gatorade. They threw misshapen, muddy and tobacco stained balls wearing wool clothing with ratty infield dirt and patchy outfield grass behind them. They left their little moldy mitts out on the mound or crammed them into sweaty back pockets, returned to stifling and dirty dugouts and then marched out to the bump again, expected to finish the whole game. Oh, and maybe be available for the nightcap.

Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson were different pitchers. Hard to compare. If I needed one of them to win a game for me in today's era, Matty would start, go 7.1IP and then I'd have Waddell handle a lefty before turning it over to WaJo to close it out, maybe even ask him to pull a Gossage and get 6 outs. Both great pitchers in their own way, both legends. Love learning as much as I can about all of these guys though. They were all special.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

A WaJo fan ripped this card in half, and then a Matty fan Sweet-Capped it back together again.

I also think a Walter Johnson fan, full of malice, and with a trembling, scissor wielding hand, made this E101 Mathewson feel real small.

Brian

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by jacksons

All of these guys were incredible. They were all kings of the mound in their time, and they did it with no MRIs, no trainers, no synthetic and breathable uniforms, no 4-5 days off, no bullpens, no gatorade. They threw misshapen, muddy and tobacco stained balls wearing wool clothing with ratty infield dirt and patchy outfield grass behind them. They left their little moldy mitts out on the mound or crammed them into sweaty back pockets, returned to stifling and dirty dugouts and then marched out to the bump again, expected to finish the whole game. Oh, and maybe be available for the nightcap.

Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson were different pitchers. Hard to compare. If I needed one of them to win a game for me in today's era, Matty would start, go 7.1IP and then I'd have Waddell handle a lefty before turning it over to WaJo to close it out, maybe even ask him to pull a Gossage and get 6 outs. Both great pitchers in their own way, both legends. Love learning as much as I can about all of these guys though. They were all special.

Beautiful group Jacksons.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some sweet cards and items in this thread. (excuse Alexander for photo-bombing)

We can't have Matty's and GCA's 1921 W-UNC cards in this thread without including Walter's card from this set as well: