Trading with Dealers at Card Shows?

[Exhibitman]

Guys, i think that is a misread of the situation. You're not trading Even Steven with a fellow collector. Of course the dealer is going to need an advantage: he has overhead and costs to cover, a profit to make, and inventory turnover to consider. From my column on what a dealer faces in costs from last September's Burbank Card Show at the Anaheim Convention Center:

"The convention room rate for three nights is a total of $597. Sounds good. Then the add-ons. You want to park your car? Another $30 a night. You want to use the internet? Add another $14.99 per. Then the tourist taxes add another 20% to the whole. My $597 stay becomes an $880 stay (rounded). Add to that at least another $50 a day to eat, and my overhead leaps to $1,030. Say I did a really good job of buying and I make 50% for each card I sell. Add that overhead to the costs. The first $1,030 of my net profit (excluding the cost of the cards I sell) goes to overhead. Do the math: if my profit averages 50%, then $2,060 in gross sales is my break-even point. But wait, I also have to pay sales taxes since I am doing retail and I remit my taxes like the good citizen I am; render unto Caesar, etc. Add about 10% to the total, pushing my break-even point to $2,266. That’s the risk I take when I set up. Every sale goes towards covering that nut before I make a dime."

That's why I have to have an advantage on every trade, whether it is based on value or based on desirability of the cards in question. Without it, I cannot afford to be there and there is no card show for you to attend.

[StraightRaceCards]

I’ve found the most successful trades at shows for me have been a combination of money and cards that are either duplicates or ones that I am ready to find a new home for

I’m not too concerned about the trade value as long as it’s somewhat reasonable. When you add cash in, it helps a ton.

I was able to pick up two of my favorite cards this way at the last two shows I’ve been to

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

A big part of the equation is the time value of money. If you want a very liquid card don't expect to be able to trade cards that will sit in a showcase for months or longer. It's not even necessarily about the dollar values as much as it is speed with which the dealer can monetize the trade.

You have a '52 Topps Mantle you want to trade for 100 PSA 5 1933 Goudey commons? You may well get 1 to 1 value. You want to do that trade in reverse you'd be lucky to get 50% on the Goudeys.

[LEHR]

To the OP:

I've made trades with dealers a few times over the years, but it was just when 1. I wanted an item really bad and didn't have the cash to cover at that time (I don't use credit for hobbies), or 2. When I had a lot of wiggle room on my end so I could let the dealer get his 20-30% cut on my item and I still came out ahead.
From my experience it's also easier to trade higher dollar items with dealers. The lower value your item is the less interest it will typically receive. Not sure I've ever been able to make a trade on a sub $100.00 item since I was a kid.

[steve B]

I haven't done it with cards, but have sold cards to dealers.
It usually works best if you think like a dealer.

Selling, I almost prefer dealers. No messing around with fussiness about condition or anything, just a straight "I can pay X" by now we should all know what general commodity cards are worth.
Usually I just ask if they're buying and it's usually only certain things. Or I just show them what I have and tell them to ignore any pricing I had on for my own reference or a selling trip to the flea market.


I have used a different approach with a stamp once.
I had a rare one, and a dealer wanted it, made an offer, but I'd only just gotten it, and wanted closer to retail as finding another was unlikely.
He had one I wanted, but I couldn't afford it.
Didn't even think of swapping....
Did sell him a different one.

2 years later, we both still had them, so I reminded him of our earlier discussion, and said "we both have the same stuff after 2 years, any interest in swapping so I get something I need and you get to freshen the inventory a little.?"
Vaiues had slightly changed, but mine plus cash got me a stamp I would never have afforded otherwise.

In the end if the dealer will trade, it's all about presenting some sort of added value to them, either liquidity or adding fresh stuff to their inventory.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by steve B

I haven't done it with cards, but have sold cards to dealers.
It usually works best if you think like a dealer.

Selling, I almost prefer dealers. No messing around with fussiness about condition or anything, just a straight "I can pay X" by now we should all know what general commodity cards are worth.
Usually I just ask if they're buying and it's usually only certain things. Or I just show them what I have and tell them to ignore any pricing I had on for my own reference or a selling trip to the flea market.


I have used a different approach with a stamp once.
I had a rare one, and a dealer wanted it, made an offer, but I'd only just gotten it, and wanted closer to retail as finding another was unlikely.
He had one I wanted, but I couldn't afford it.
Didn't even think of swapping....
Did sell him a different one.

2 years later, we both still had them, so I reminded him of our earlier discussion, and said "we both have the same stuff after 2 years, any interest in swapping so I get something I need and you get to freshen the inventory a little.?"
Vaiues had slightly changed, but mine plus cash got me a stamp I would never have afforded otherwise.

In the end if the dealer will trade, it's all about presenting some sort of added value to them, either liquidity or adding fresh stuff to their inventory.

Good point about liquidity. I’ve observed to get huge deals done, sellers look for at least 10% cash, which is a benefit to buyer as it helps prevent further dilution of their position. But if the buyer gets a dream card they love and look at every day, that’s their #1 priority and dealers know that leverage point.

[Republicaninmass]

From my experiences, it take much too long to try and make a trade. You will end up missing deals at other tables, and the dealer will end up losing customers or not giving you their full attention.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

From my experiences, it take much too long to try and make a trade. You will end up missing deals at other tables, and the dealer will end up losing customers or not giving you their full attention.

When I attend shows as a customer, I tend to agree, which is why I don't bother. I used to trade every year at the National with another boxing collector and our deals got so complex and time consuming that after the last one I said that I felt like I'd just given birth. It was a worse time suck than a damn rotisserie league draft.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by LarsHoneyToast

I’ve found the most successful trades at shows for me have been a combination of money and cards

Absolutely, and that is where it gets interesting. If I can get my costs covered with the cash part, then I have a lot more flexibility with the trade part.

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Guys, i think that is a misread of the situation. You're not trading Even Steven with a fellow collector. Of course the dealer is going to need an advantage: he has overhead and costs to cover, a profit to make, and inventory turnover to consider. From my column on what a dealer faces in costs from last September's Burbank Card Show at the Anaheim Convention Center:

"The convention room rate for three nights is a total of $597. Sounds good. Then the add-ons. You want to park your car? Another $30 a night. You want to use the internet? Add another $14.99 per. Then the tourist taxes add another 20% to the whole. My $597 stay becomes an $880 stay (rounded). Add to that at least another $50 a day to eat, and my overhead leaps to $1,030. Say I did a really good job of buying and I make 50% for each card I sell. Add that overhead to the costs. The first $1,030 of my net profit (excluding the cost of the cards I sell) goes to overhead. Do the math: if my profit averages 50%, then $2,060 in gross sales is my break-even point. But wait, I also have to pay sales taxes since I am doing retail and I remit my taxes like the good citizen I am; render unto Caesar, etc. Add about 10% to the total, pushing my break-even point to $2,266. That’s the risk I take when I set up. Every sale goes towards covering that nut before I make a dime."

That's why I have to have an advantage on every trade, whether it is based on value or based on desirability of the cards in question. Without it, I cannot afford to be there and there is no card show for you to attend.

Adam, what you articulate is something not a lot of collectors understand, but maybe more importantly they mostly don't care. That must make it especially difficult for a dealer today with so much information at everyone's fingertips. How many times will a collector pull out eBay comps and walk away from anything higher priced than that, whether a trade or a straight sale? As a dealer, how do you navigate through that conversation/ negotiation, or do you just move on if you know early on that you are too far apart?

Myself, as a collector that would like to set up more often at shows, the break-even point is probably the #1 thing keeping me away. I can't get over my collector mentality and the fact that I would have to sell so much just to "get my money back" is akin to just giving that stuff away - and I can't do it!
Ray

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

I can't get over my collector mentality and the fact that I would have to sell so much just to "get my money back" is akin to just giving that stuff away - and I can't do it!
Ray

Exactly why I haven't set up on my own at a show in over 30 years. It's not necessary anymore, and the overhead is just a silly waste of money. Sitting there all weekend is a waste of time, not to mention any travel involved. Everything can be done from the comfort of home. If any interactions are particularly unwelcome or aggravating, it's a beautiful thing to be able to stop communication with ease from this side of the monitor. That's sometimes difficult to do in-person at a show, not to mention people who want to talk your ear off as opposed to buy anything.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Exactly why I haven't set up on my own at a show in over 30 years. It's not necessary anymore, and the overhead is just a silly waste of money. Sitting there all weekend is a waste of time, not to mention any travel involved. Everything can be done from the comfort of home. If any interactions are particularly unwelcome or aggravating, it's a beautiful thing to be able to stop communication with ease from this side of the monitor. That's sometimes difficult to do in person at a show, not to mention people who want to talk your ear off as opposed to buy anything.

Setting up at shows also covers a little more. Two that come to mind are the chance I say chance which is slim nowadays with the mass amount of major AHs set up at shows, to Score on buying a deal. Many dealers won’t tell you that but that’s the real. Building relationships face-to-face is also a big deal with people many of whom have great cards. It’s making personal connections.

[Spike]

As my prewar collection grew and eBay's tax reporting gets more cut-and-dry, I thought a lot more about trading because it defers an expected tax hit for just listing stuff online. Adam's the first in this thread to address taxes. How many of you have tax reporting in mind when thinking about trades vs. sales? If you're a dealer or talking with a dealer, do you consider that as a factor when determining trade value?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Spike

As my prewar collection grew and eBay's tax reporting gets more cut-and-dry, I thought a lot more about trading because it defers an expected tax hit for just listing stuff online. Adam's the first in this thread to address taxes. How many of you have tax reporting in mind when thinking about trades vs. sales? If you're a dealer or talking with a dealer, do you consider that as a factor when determining trade value?

I guess somebody had to bring up taxes.

As your friendly local CPA, I will hasten to observe that trades technically no longer defer your income tax hit. If you bought your piece for $100 a decade ago and trade it for another piece today that is worth $500, then you have a taxable gain of $400, even though you got no cash. Add enough zeros on to these examples, as you're talking about some real potential tax.

Prior to 2017 tax reform, you could defer your taxes this way through a like kind exchange (also known as a 1031 exchange). But no longer, because the only like kind exchanges permitted under current law are for real estate.

Naturally, there is no reporting when it comes to trades. And I'm not your mother, so I can't make you file your taxes correctly. But I will tell you that interest and penalties for filing your taxes incorrectly are no joke. And I'm sure we are all diligent about being good citizens who pay our fair share as required under the law, even when we don't agree with it. But now you know the law, and knowing is half the battle.

[Exhibitman]

Ray, I just shrug it off. If you can't make a deal, you can't make a deal. I'd say roughly 2/3 of the offers I get at shows are no deals, either because the buyer wants too much for the items or I have no use for them. The worst thing I can do is make a bad deal because I want to do a deal. I refuse a lot of deals that I do not think will pay off. I'd rather just go to the beach instead of wasting my time. I make my best offer and if the counterparty says no, that's fine.

BillyCox, if you don't enjoy the atmosphere and interactions at a show, setting up isn't for you. It's a public-facing business, so you have to enjoy interacting with the public. As a frustrated stand-up, I like having an audience, so I find the interactions invigorating, especially when I get to test new material on the customers. I get that some people do not like that focus. Hell, based on how I see some dealers act, I'd say that a good 20% of dealers should not be working in a public-facing business. I happen to enjoy it (way more than lawyering), so even if the money isn't great, the activity is a pleasant way to spend a weekend. I meet some really interesting people, see things I would not otherwise see, and make contacts that can pay off later. More than once I've been working at a show, had a conversation with someone, and ended up being referred to someone else for a deal that I would never have made without being there and meeting that person. I once got to spend an afternoon picking at the estate of a legendary Hollywood mogul because I was set up at a show and had a conversation with an attendee who knew the heir to the estate and made the introduction. I got some good stuff but even more fun, I got to go through a treasure trove of studio history and material that would have made a pretty good museum collection.

Johnny, there are still buying opportunities, but they are pedestrian. I will buy anything as long as the per unit price works for me. The reality is that you can patiently buy basic commodity cards across a table and gradually turn a profit and build up an inventory. The singles add up too; you don't need a homer every time.

[Tony Gordon]

I set up at shows every weekend and I rarely trade. Those offering trades rarely have anything I want. I would rather buy your cards than trade for them. Also, setting up at shows is rarely a waste of my time. Sales are generally pretty good, buys are generally pretty good and the social interaction is priceless.