1991 Topps variations

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all. That seems odd to me...and I'm not seeing it with any of the other cards with similar characteristics. I don't think I have this one card that perhaps came out of a busted factory set of vending...but would that explain why only one is different? I am sure the other 14 came from various stages of print runs throughout late '90 and '91.

My memory sucks so hopefully someone else can comment. I believe the glow back and non glow backs are from different packaging. I know I was putting both sets together from the silly amounts of 91 Topps I had. Then someone told me it was just the packaging they came in so I stopped sorting.

[YazFenway08]

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout

and on the related topic of Desert Shield...I spent some time looking on Blowout at some of the fakes they had uncovered along with high -res closeups of the stamps.

I thought I was pretty comfortable after reading all the help you and ZachWheat had provided over the years...but now I think I give up. If those slabbed DS cards are really fakes, it means the scammers have learned all they needed and have perfected their craft...I cannot discern much of a difference anymore.

I really had hoped that cards in the most recent slabs would come with some more intelligence from the TPGs...(yes, I realize how ridiculous that sounded before I even finished typing it)

did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout

and on the related topic of Desert Shield...I spent some time looking on Blowout at some of the fakes they had uncovered along with high -res closeups of the stamps.

I thought I was pretty comfortable after reading all the help you and ZachWheat had provided over the years...but now I think I give up. If those slabbed DS cards are really fakes, it means the scammers have learned all they needed and have perfected their craft...I cannot discern much of a difference anymore.

I really had hoped that cards in the most recent slabs would come with some more intelligence from the TPGs...(yes, I realize how ridiculous that sounded before I even finished typing it)

did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

Because it is just a foil stamp on the DS cards the fakes showed up pretty quickly. The grading companies are horrible at grading them. I have noticed way more of the fake Chipper cards getting graded. For fun I just checked eBay and to me the majority of the high graded ones are fake. Unfortunately they started grading one of the obvious(to me) fakes and now there are a lot of that version in slabs.

[bnorth]

Just found another one. Found this Robin Ventura in a binder with what looks like a brown inner left border. I believe this to be the one Dylan has listed as red with grey overprint.

[YazFenway08]

hey Ben. here is the raw chipper i have had for 30 years….spurred the questions about when the “fakes” started. the picture admittedy isn’t great

[bnorth]

Here is your Chipper next to a known real one with the shield on similar condition. With the fuzzy pic and the weird tilt of the shield on the card I don't like it, a clearer pic would help. I do like it more since I put the other one beside it than when I first looked at it. I would bet PSA would like it though. What does everyone else think?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just found another one. Found this Robin Ventura in a binder with what looks like a brown inner left border. I believe this to be the one Dylan has listed as red with grey overprint.

Yes, I believe that Topps originally printed with gray, then added a red layer over it before changing to solid red. Very apparent when all are together in person.

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout


did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

I recall hearing/learning about them being faked in 1991 or 1992. I purchased a Robin Ventura miscut around then and I remember the dealers talking about counterfeits of them going around.

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all.

There is no Chipper with Bold 40th logo because that variation only affects A* and B* sheet players. Chipper can be found without ANY of the 40th logo on back.

There should not be any variations in the Desert Shield set since the cards were from a very distinct run. Whenever I have encountered an error or correted counterpart to a known DS variant, it is always a fake (Mike Walker, Efrain Valdez, Pat Borders etc). I believe that all DS cards should have glow backs but Zack Wheat found one or two oddballs in his stash. All A* and B* DS cards should he Bold 40th backs.

And on the topic of fake DS cards, if anyone stumbles on a fake Robin Ventura, please let me know, I'd love to own a copy if it uses the wrong border version or is non-bold 40th on back.

[YazFenway08]

Ben,

I know my Chipper pics arent very good...but my scanner is even worse. In hand, that one lesser known "tell" that I think I know about from corresponding with you and ZachWheat looks ok...and on the known fakes it really stands out

the other thing about timing...Chipper was certainly a known guy in '91...but he ceretianly wasn't Chipper Chipper yet...would someone really have spent time faking a prospect and selling it for $5...I mean with inflation, thats like $60 today, but still

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

Ben,

I know my Chipper pics arent very good...but my scanner is even worse. In hand, that one lesser known "tell" that I think I know about from corresponding with you and ZachWheat looks ok...and on the known fakes it really stands out

the other thing about timing...Chipper was certainly a known guy in '91...but he ceretianly wasn't Chipper Chipper yet...would someone really have spent time faking a prospect and selling it for $5...I mean with inflation, thats like $60 today, but still

People forge $1-$5 autographs all the time, eBay has a ton of them listed right now. It is a popular misconception that only expensive stuff is faked. Absolutely everything is faked. It is way easier to sell the fake cheap stuff because so many think nobody would fake that to make a couple dollars.

I just got lucky because usually my pics are way worse than yours on the DS cards.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

People forge $1-$5 autographs all the time, eBay has a ton of them listed right now. It is a popular misconception that only expensive stuff is faked. Absolutely everything is faked. It is way easier to sell the fake cheap stuff because so many think nobody would fake that to make a couple dollars.

I just got lucky because usually my pics are way worse than yours on the DS cards.

Yep. And people werent forging Chipper so much as the 1991 cards in general. The DS cards were scorching hot.

And...for the record, Chipper was literally the #1 overall draft pick in 1990. He was cheap in 1991-1992 (I bought every card that Burbank Sportscards had in stock back then and most were $0.30-40/ea) but a major prospect.

[jacksoncoupage]

Just revised the checklist/article for 1991 Topps with a lot of supplemental information.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ing-checklist/

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My memory sucks so hopefully someone else can comment. I believe the glow back and non glow backs are from different packaging. I know I was putting both sets together from the silly amounts of 91 Topps I had. Then someone told me it was just the packaging they came in so I stopped sorting.

Ben, I think the glow backs were from the UV brightener added to the ink and not distinguishable from packaging (not certain), although that would make sense. DS cards should be in wax packs only, but we know DS cards come in both varieties. I have a DS card where the ink wasn't mixed completely so some of the red ink on the card is a glow back and the remainder is not. Glowback=does not fluoresce under UV light

[ALR-bishop]

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

1990 Major Legue Debut (corners of the sheet)

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have collected error and oddball stuff before 91 and I have also never once seen any of the redemption cards for any high end or oversize cards.

Also want to add I like many others greatly appreciate all the effort Dylan has put into his website.

Thanks Ben!

[judsonhamlin]

Didn’t see the 124 Bush no print code listed on the newest version of the’91 checklist. Is that still a real variant?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Didn’t see the 124 Bush no print code listed on the newest version of the’91 checklist. Is that still a real variant?

It sure is. I own a single copy and have never found another. A few sold on ebay/comc a couple years back for very low prices.

[deweyinthehall]

A basic (dumb?) question from someone who already has 50-60 variations in his PC and is wondering how deep into this swamp to go....

Are ALL 792 cards available in light and dark logo versions?

Anyone want to speculate what the heck was happening at Topps in late 1990 and early 1991 that caused this insanity?

[richtree]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

Al, if you are selling., i will buy it ---

or if anyone else has the X card I will bu;y !!