All I see is TRIM!!!!!!!

ullmandds · #1 05-06-2023, 09:48 PM

it's gonna come out someday...in a memoir...or autobiography of a dealer/trimmer...the majority of high grade cards like over 90% are altered.

Casey2296 · #2 05-06-2023, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

it's gonna come out someday...in a memoir...or autobiography of a dealer/trimmer...the majority of high grade cards like over 90% are altered.

I can see the book title now;
To quote the great John Lennon:

"I have blisters on my fingers, memoirs of a card trimmer"

Bliggity · #3 05-06-2023, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

To quote the great John Lennon:

"I have blisters on my fingers, memoirs of a card trimmer"

That was Ringo!

Casey2296 · #4 05-06-2023, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bliggity

That was Ringo!

I stand corrected, thank you.

Johnny630 · #5 05-07-2023, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

it's gonna come out someday...in a memoir...or autobiography of a dealer/trimmer...the majority of high grade cards like over 90% are altered.

I said the exact same thing about 3 years ago on a Facebook Group Called Tobacco Row...they HATED IT AND CALLED ME A FEAR MUNGER....sadly I think many know it�s true but couldn�t accept it.

trambo · #6 05-07-2023, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I said the exact same thing about 3 years ago on a Facebook Group Called Tobacco Row...they HATED IT AND CALLED ME A FEAR MUNGER....sadly I think many know it�s true but couldn�t accept it.

I have no doubt that some higher grade cards are trimmed and the TPGs miss them at times. I don't think more than 90% and would contend that it's far, far less than that. My opinion and it clearly differs from yours.

Your recollection of that time frame and mine aren't the same as it relates to Tobacco Row. Simply, I disagree with your assessment on how your comments were received. You and a few others decided that every post being made or commented on had to be about trimming cards and how the hobby was going to hell. After several dozen of those exact comments it gets old. Just because people call you on it doesn't mean we didn't agree with the concept that people trim cards, it's an issue and it stinks. Some of us can know that's a thing yet focus on more positive aspects of the hobby as well. Getting beaten over the head with it is unnecessary and my guess is when someone called you on it, you left the group and left it with the above opinion. What I would've (and am) told (telling) you is no issue with bringing up a point like that but no need to bring it up daily for weeks in every post. It's just annoying. I doubt I'm the only person that felt that way at the time and nothing's changed. We can focus on the good of the hobby while acknowledging there are aspects of it that aren't great.

My take on those posts back then is that you were 100% fear mongering. You were thinking (and maybe still do) that the sky is falling or will fall in the tobacco market. And while you may think we hated what you said, speaking for myself, I didn't like it because of the frequency of you and others saying it. It was annoying. I want to talk about all aspects of the hobby and not get beaten over the head about only the bad things. That's what was happening then.

..and I do collect those types of cards and I completely disagree that more than 9 out of 10 of them have been altered. I'm cool if you don't agree with me and I can assure you I won't beat you over the head with my opinion. I'd appreciate the same in kind..

Troy Rambo

Luke · #7 05-07-2023, 01:05 PM

Yikes that Cobb 8

Johnny630 · #8 05-07-2023, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trambo

I have no doubt that some higher grade cards are trimmed and the TPGs miss them at times. I don't think more than 90% and would contend that it's far, far less than that. My opinion and it clearly differs from yours.

Your recollection of that time frame and mine aren't the same as it relates to Tobacco Row. Simply, I disagree with your assessment on how your comments were received. You and a few others decided that every post being made or commented on had to be about trimming cards and how the hobby was going to hell. After several dozen of those exact comments it gets old. Just because people call you on it doesn't mean we didn't agree with the concept that people trim cards, it's an issue and it stinks. Some of us can know that's a thing yet focus on more positive aspects of the hobby as well. Getting beaten over the head with it is unnecessary and my guess is when someone called you on it, you left the group and left it with the above opinion. What I would've (and am) told (telling) you is no issue with bringing up a point like that but no need to bring it up daily for weeks in every post. It's just annoying. I doubt I'm the only person that felt that way at the time and nothing's changed. We can focus on the good of the hobby while acknowledging there are aspects of it that aren't great.

My take on those posts back then is that you were 100% fear mongering. You were thinking (and maybe still do) that the sky is falling or will fall in the tobacco market. And while you may think we hated what you said, speaking for myself, I didn't like it because of the frequency of you and others saying it. It was annoying. I want to talk about all aspects of the hobby and not get beaten over the head about only the bad things. That's what was happening then.

..and I do collect those types of cards and I completely disagree that more than 9 out of 10 of them have been altered. I'm cool if you don't agree with me and I can assure you I won't beat you over the head with my opinion. I'd appreciate the same in kind..

Troy Rambo

Troy, thanks for the dialogue. My intention was not to be annoying but to warn newer collectors of my opinion on slabbed high end tobacco cards.

I have collected cards for over 30+ years. I firmly believe that most high end slabbed t206 cards are in an altered state. Look at blowout and other sites, they point out before and after pictures over and over again. It has been going on and will continue to go on. That is my belief.

Snowman · #9 05-07-2023, 07:37 PM

The overwhelming majority of high grade vintage cards are altered, without question. Marshal Fogel's entire collection, just about, has been trimmed or was cut from a sheet. His MBA black diamond 52T Mantle PSA 10 is almost certainly sheet cut. Same with Nat Turner's high grade vintage collection. Anyone swimming in those waters cannot avoid them. The submissions from the early days, in particular, at PSA were loaded with trimmers. They were the early adopters that helped to build the PSA brand. There's no such thing as a "truly" gem mint vintage card.

jchcollins · #10 05-08-2023, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The overwhelming majority of high grade vintage cards are altered, without question. Marshal Fogel's entire collection, just about, has been trimmed or was cut from a sheet. His MBA black diamond 52T Mantle PSA 10 is almost certainly sheet cut.

Not saying you�re wrong, but would be interested in a bit more evidence to back that claim up? How specifically do you know that his PSA 10 �52 Mantle (there are 2 others that Fogel doesn�t own�) is trimmed? I would agree that a card like that in a 10 is suspect if nothing else - but this is the first accusation I�ve seen on that particular card.

Sheet cut, trimmed or not - Fogel�s collection is pretty insane. It kills me how he shuffles his slabs around like playing cards, no sleeves. I bet they are all scratched to hell.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Johnny630 · #11 05-08-2023, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Not saying you�re wrong, but would be interested in a bit more evidence to back that claim up? How specifically do you know that his PSA 10 �52 Mantle (there are 2 others that Fogel doesn�t own�) is trimmed? I would agree that a card like that in a 10 is suspect if nothing else - but this is the first accusation I�ve seen on that particular card.

Sheet cut, trimmed or not - Fogel�s collection is pretty insane. It kills me how he shuffles his slabs around like playing cards, no sleeves. I bet they are all scratched to hell.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mr Fogel�s Collection is Top Notch Insane ! I would assume he could get all his cards gratis reholdered at any time he desires.

Dead-Ball-Hitter · #12 05-09-2023, 10:36 AM

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

G1911 · #13 05-09-2023, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

I wish the TPG�s would disappear, but rewinding time to before the internet is not even vaguely realistic.

ullmandds · #14 05-09-2023, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

nice pipe dream! the tpg'ers have enabled the commoditization of our beloved cards...this is what the present hobby wants.

perezfan · #15 05-09-2023, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

Yup... better days for sure. Sure wish it could go that route, but the greed and current level of TPG hypnosis will never allow it to happen.

If TPGs have to be involved, I wish there was a grading company that would treat cards like they do vintage photos (meaning no number grades). The categories could be...

Type 1: Authentic and Unaltered
Type 2: Authentic but Altered
Type 3: Reprint
Type 4: Counterfeit, Fantasy, etc.

This way, the card's owner could decide the grade himself! Some collectors care more about centering than others. Some care more about crease-free cards. Some aren't bothered by worn corners. So who deemed the 3rd party's standards as the "Word of God", and why are there such huge variances in grades 1 - 3, but only microscopic variances in grades 7 - 10? Why isn't the scale even throughout?

Of course this Type 1 - 4 scenario would require an unbiased TPG that is capable of detecting alteration. And yes, I know it will never happen.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
W516-1 To trim or not to trim.	Vintagedeputy	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	5	04-13-2022 04:52 PM
Possibly my best trim job yet!	jammin0511	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	8	07-17-2019 08:37 PM
To trim or not to trim	JoeyFarino	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	8	08-27-2016 09:24 AM
To trim or not to trim........	Brian Van Horn	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	6	05-11-2014 08:37 PM
OT: Opinion requested - to trim or not to trim?	tschock	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	11	01-27-2013 02:20 PM