Where is the second ledger of T cards?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Greg, when you originally posted this thread I was hoping the person that purchased the book or someone with more information would respond, there's some very useful information just in the few images Leland's posted.

In the write up they give credit to Fullgraff for coming up with the Turkey Red cigarette name but to me it looks it might have been Julius (I can't make out the last name) Bionter? that came up with the Turkey Red name.

I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think you are right and it is definitely "this brand [coined?] and named, January 30th, 1909 by Julius Bionter" by the prototype pack art. They are reading the purple stamp of Fullgraff's name that appears to be on most pages as the conclusion of the statement, instead of the statement being written around the stamp.

I have never been able to find anything on who this man was. We found a lot on Fullgraff, though there's a lot more we need, but I have never been able to find anything on this "Bionter" [I'm pretty sure that's the name, the second letter clearly has a "i" style dot] fellow. He doesn't appear in any of the ATC/AL/Brett documents I have found or in the old industry periodicals, that I can find. Unless I am reading his name wrong.

I would not have expected Turkey Red to be such a new brand.

Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

img192.jpg

img193.jpg

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Yeah I've never been able to find anything about Turkey Red cigarettes before 1909 but I did just find something very interesting by searching Julius Bion instead of Bionter.

Attachment 543709

Attachment 543710

There was a lot of information on Julius Bion that I'm going to go back and check on.

I never would have thought to shorten the name. 49 year gap, but a lithographer naming the brand would, while odd the surface, mesh with other things we found. It still surprises me just how much of American Tobacco’s business was apparently outsourced to lithographers in a loose network of firms who doubled as marketing and brand managers. Fullgraff at present seems to be not only the architect of many (possibly the T card renaissance as a whole) of these sets but the connection between these industries’ odd relationships. As a huge monopoly I would have expected them to have more control of their own product than they seem to have had.

[G1911]

Julius Bion & Co. appear to have done a lot of printing work for the United States Senate in the 1890's. This firm's name is repeated throughout their "Reports of the Public Printer". Here's the 1895 book covering 1893-1894, and in which this firm appears many times: https://www.google.com/books/edition...C?hl=en&gbpv=0. He appears in House reports from the 1880's, did some work for the Commerce, Agriculture and State departments that are all in similar resources on Google Books. This moves us a lot closer to 1909. Bion may not be this man in the ledger but he was probably in Fullgraff's network, who was in the business at this same time and his primary career seems to have been networking.

[G1911]

I suspect Julius Bien & Co. and Julius Bion & Co., lithographers with a specialty in producing maps, are the exact same thing, and this is just another example of inconsistent spelling.

Under the name Bien, instead of Bion, this firm is clearly active in 1909. Government printing office reports continue to refer to them in 1911 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover), and in 1914.

Evidently, Bien/Bion was bidding against American Lithography for government contracts in 1911, and losing. If this is the same man (I have a hard time believing there was a Julius Bion, Julius Bien, and Julius Bionter all in the same industry in management roles of some kind at the same time, can't say for sure but it seems very likely), he, like we have continually found with these lithographers, seems to both be competing with American Lithography and also working with them, and with other lithographers. We have Old Masters, Brett 100% doing some of the printing, Bien designing brands and marketing materials, American Lithography. The traditional claim that AL and the ATC were the solitary partners on the American Tobacco companies cards certainly does not seem to be the case.

[G1911]

Ha, I thought Bien sounded real familiar and went back to our previous thread here (https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=309276&page=2).

Fullgraff was a clerk for Bien in the 1890's, from the same source I found that gave us Fullgraff's membership in the New York Athletic Club (which seems to relate to t218 and T220, many of those portrayed he surely knew personally) and the Larchmont.

You found a source of them being on Sixth Avenue in NY from between at least 1898-1915.

This is clearly all the same person/firm at this point.

[RCMcKenzie]

I recognize Julius Bien & Co from the Buchner Gold Coin series. I collect the set and was doing some research on the fly in this thread, see post 31.

www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=284915


Hopefully, the winner of the Leland's lot will chime in.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I suspect Julius Bien & Co. and Julius Bion & Co., lithographers with a specialty in producing maps, are the exact same thing, and this is just another example of inconsistent spelling.

Under the name Bien, instead of Bion, this firm is clearly active in 1909. Government printing office reports continue to refer to them in 1911 (https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover), and in 1914.

Evidently, Bien/Bion was bidding against American Lithography for government contracts in 1911, and losing. If this is the same man (I have a hard time believing there was a Julius Bion, Julius Bien, and Julius Bionter all in the same industry in management roles of some kind at the same time, can't say for sure but it seems very likely), he, like we have continually found with these lithographers, seems to both be competing with American Lithography and also working with them, and with other lithographers. We have Old Masters, Brett 100% doing some of the printing, Bien designing brands and marketing materials, American Lithography. The traditional claim that AL and the ATC were the solitary partners on the American Tobacco companies cards certainly does not seem to be the case.

Yes, it didn't dawn on me when I posted the clips but after I went back to look at some of the additional information last night I came to the same conclusion as you.

[toppcat]

Fascinating!