Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

MLB bans the use of illegal drugs! What is it people don't understand about that.

I don't think anyone debates this or thinks otherwise.

[steve B]

One thing that's interesting is how differently fans of sports think of those caught.

Most US sports, it's almost a career ender. And many fans are unforgiving and/or can't appreciate what a player did before doping.

In many other sports, especially European ones, it's treated much differently. Player dopes, gets a year ban which can be appealed. If the reason is plausible and the athlete contrite, they may get it reduced. Even if it's not reduced, they take their year ban and are welcomed back afterwards.
Sort of an "aw shucks, you caught me, I'll take a year off"
They may not come back to the same team, or in the same prominent role immediately, but they do come back with few problems.

Totally different if the reason is wildly implausible. So steroids from meat sent by fans is forgivable, but excess body chemicals from a hidden conjoined twin that was never brought up until getting caught and that they present no evidence for is very much not OK. (Yeah, some crazy excuses. )
The UCI at a minimum tracks riders in the offseason, location who they're with, must report for random testing within a few hours. They publish a list with the riders categorized by how suspect they are. That categorization determines how often someone gets tested.
And still... One of my favorites was always listed on the squeaky clean not at all suspect list while regularly beating the highly suspect by large margins.
Mid career he was accused of being an early user of hidden electric motors, but the available ones at the time were too noisy and no evidence was found.

[smokinjoe]

The whole PED thing is actually irrelevant. It makes great fodder for folks to argue and debate about but at the end of the day every era had its own share of players trying to "game it" whether through PEDS, greenies, coke, ball doctoring, bat loading or corking.. you name it they did it. And in every era it was never brougfht up until MLB decided that the bad press was bad for the establishment. MLB has never made decisions based on good of the game, only good for MLB. At the end of the day players just built better mousetraps....

While Clemens, Bonds and many others may or may not have egaged in the use of steroids (never tested, so never tested positive) their accomplishments can not be just deleted from history as society wants to do with everything else tahat is feels is controversial.

The same media that is bashing some players and not others with either reasonable suspision or actual failed tests and bans are the same ones who with the same reasonable suspisions were hailing the players as saviors of the sport during their playing years.


As for Clemens himself, he is statistics clearly show that he was one of the top 5-6 pitchers in baseball history. Many dominant years and longevity (regardless whether PEDS helped)

[ClementeFanOh]

Smokinjoe- I'm preparing to head to the Midwest Monster card show in
Indy, so I thought I'd check net54 to see if there were threads about it.
Couldn't find any mention, so I read your comment on PEDs/Clemens and
will weigh in.

My first thought is that I recall Bonds/Clemens being wonderful players pre
rampant cheating. I was a "fan" of neither, but man they could play. So, I
don't have a 'fan" based dog in this fight. That being said, your remarks left
me scratching my head a bit...

1) PEDs are indeed relevant, their proliferation changed the way observers
perceived the game while clearly influencing statistical/performance results
of those who abused. By the way, there is no "may or may not" in regard to
PED use by these 2 players specifically- they did it, period.

2) Speaking only for myself, I'm not a "canceler". I recall their play well.
This thread calls for opinion (which is judgment) on where Clemens ranks
on a scale. His "ranking" suffers due to PED abuse. (That's not just me,
but a bunch of folks). Someone mentioned that there are 84 pitchers in
HOF, thus putting him somewhere around 85-90. Sounds about right.

3) I would argue that these PED guys (specifically) hardly built better
mousetraps. Their abuse became obvious and permanently intertwined
with their achievements, it was not "clever".

4) Don't feel too bad for these 2! The Google machine reveals Clemens
was paid between 150-170 million in his career, absent endorsements.
Bonds was slightly higher at 188 million. They are laughing all the way to
the bank, compensated exponentially more than the greats who came
before them. They still have plenty of fans too! I can't imagine they lose
sleep over what they did.

I'm not qualified to determine the ultimate resting place for their eternal
souls, but they've earned those asterisks in baseball history. I hope they
always stay by their names.

Trent King

[uniship]

Great discussion. I too was surprised to see Clemens ranked so extremely high.

It’s interesting how a player’s personality/charisma/like-ability has such a huge and direct impact on how he’s viewed regarding PED’s.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Smokinjoe- I'm preparing to head to the Midwest Monster card show in
Indy, so I thought I'd check net54 to see if there were threads about it.
Couldn't find any mention, so I read your comment on PEDs/Clemens and
will weigh in.

My first thought is that I recall Bonds/Clemens being wonderful players pre
rampant cheating. I was a "fan" of neither, but man they could play. So, I
don't have a 'fan" based dog in this fight. That being said, your remarks left
me scratching my head a bit...

1) PEDs are indeed relevant, their proliferation changed the way observers
perceived the game while clearly influencing statistical/performance results
of those who abused. By the way, there is no "may or may not" in regard to
PED use by these 2 players specifically- they did it, period.

2) Speaking only for myself, I'm not a "canceler". I recall their play well.
This thread calls for opinion (which is judgment) on where Clemens ranks
on a scale. His "ranking" suffers due to PED abuse. (That's not just me,
but a bunch of folks). Someone mentioned that there are 84 pitchers in
HOF, thus putting him somewhere around 85-90. Sounds about right.

3) I would argue that these PED guys (specifically) hardly built better
mousetraps. Their abuse became obvious and permanently intertwined
with their achievements, it was not "clever".

4) Don't feel too bad for these 2! The Google machine reveals Clemens
was paid between 150-170 million in his career, absent endorsements.
Bonds was slightly higher at 188 million. They are laughing all the way to
the bank, compensated exponentially more than the greats who came
before them. They still have plenty of fans too! I can't imagine they lose
sleep over what they did.

I'm not qualified to determine the ultimate resting place for their eternal
souls, but they've earned those asterisks in baseball history. I hope they
always stay by their names.

Trent King

Trent, let us know how the show is. I used to go to the monthly shows there. There was never a lot of vintage. Wayne is no longer with us, he started me collecting t206s. JD is great to deal with, but after that slim pickings.

As far as Clemens and steroids, the players negotiated baseball's drug policy with the owners, it was part of their labor agreement. When Congress made them illegal in 1990, they were illegal in baseball. Fay Vincent sent out a memo in 1991, restating they were illegal. The players again in 1995 agreed to a drug policy where steroids were illegal. So any players who chose to ignore what they negotiated, agree to and voted to ratify are nothing more than cheaters and their stats should be ignored.

[clydepepper]

Ron Santo & Minnie Minoso were great players, but border-line HOFers.

They were also great assets ,examples and ambassadors for the GAME.

They were both done a disservice by being elected posthumously.



Rose, Clemens, Bonds, etc's punishment should be that they are elected ONLY after they're gone.


Being selected is not a right, but an honor- and those who cheat are first and foremost NOT honorable.


.