So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by G1911

Kaline had 144 and 149 OPS+'s at ages 36 and 37, Clemente 143 and 138. Kaline was not declining at this time. This is simply untrue. He was league average at age 38 and 39, before retiring.

Kaline was a star starting in 1955, at age 20 (he got MVP votes at age 19, but he did not deserve them). Clemente's breakout was 1960, at age 25. Before 1960 his bat was below league average, 6% over in 1956 when he hit .311 with no power and walked 13 times in 147 games, but below every other year. Like Kaline, Clemente blame a regular at a young age (19 for Kaline, 20 for Clemente) but he did not perform for some time. Clemente was a star player for 13 years, Kaline 18. It is not likely Clemente was going to age so well to turn this into an advantage for him.

If we are going to give Clemente credit for fantasy years that did not happen on the backend, we should give credit to Kaline for real, actual years on the front end.

Precisely...If you are loooking at total numbers...not very close....if you are looking at longer/more productive peak years...again...not very close...if you want fantasy age 38-40 years...well bring your crystal ball

[cgjackson222]

The comparison between Kaline and Clemente in their later years is not an apples to apples comparison.

Kaline was playing a lot 1st Base from 1968 onward. While he was still primarily a right fielder, he played a total of 135 games at 1st Base between 1968 and 1973. In his final year, in 1974, he ONLY played DH.

When you play 1B or DH, you need to hit quite well to be league average.

Kaline hit average for a right fielder, but below average for a 1st baseman or DH.

So, Clemente was hitting average for a Right Fielder, and still a premier fielder.
Therefore, he was more valuable to his team than Kaline towards the end of his career.

[ClementeFanOh]

jhcollins- nope, wrong. I don't care that someone disagree, I care when
people aren't savvy enough TO STAY ON POINT. Nice try though! Creating a
thread with wonks like you in mind! Trent King

[G1911]

In 1968, Kaline posted an OPS+ (I can't think of a better solitary figure of general offensive performance) of 146. In 1971, 144. In 1972, 149 (which is better than Clemente). He wasn't a slouch in '69 or '70 either. From 1968-1972, Clemente posted an OPS+ of 153, Kaline of 134.

73 and 74, Kaline's bat was league average. Kaline was below the league average 3 times, Clemente was below average for 4 years, though he didn't play out his decline, for tragic reasons. I don't think anything thinks Kaline was performing like a star his final 2 years.

Clemente is definitely better from 1968-1972; which I suppose is the whole point of focusing on this section. Nobody is arguing that Kaline was better in this selected period. Clemente is a player I greatly admire and like. But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

Kaline was far above an average player in 1972, as was Clemente. Even if we pretended Kaline was a 1B exclusively for the sake of argument. Average 1B weren't posting OPS' of that caliber, RF's were not either. Nowhere near.


I should probably stop before ClementeFan has a heart attack and goes apeshit on a fourth poster now.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- my "heart attack" can only arise from your actually staying point.
Ah well, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Trent King

And the right call is still, and always was, Roberto.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interestingly, for a great player, Clemente has some significant negatives/mediocre stats: home runs, steals and walks. In the end, based on a subjective judgment, I would give a slight edge to Clemente over Kaline, but I give very little credence to arguments Clemente was on a par or better than Aaron.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

But we need not claim Kaline was performing as an average to below average player at his position(s) starting in 1968; that's just not there in the data. He clearly was not. Let's not get hyperbolic.

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

From 1968 through the end of his career in 1974, Kaline's Wins Against Average was 2.0, 1.3, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4, -.7, -1.8. So from 1968 through 1974, Kaline's total Wins Above Average was 5.5, and his average WAA was less than 1 per year. Now, if Kaline ONLY played Right field during this time, his numbers would be much better. But he was hitting average to below average for a 1st basemen and below average for a DH.

He was also a fielding liability during this time with a negative dWAR in ever single year.

He was an average bat in 1973 and 1974. When were 1B's posting 134 OPS+'s as average? Let's not get carried away. He was getting on base and slugging well over average starters. If this is average offensive performance, Clemente has a whole lot of average years in his post-1960 career.

WAR hates his defense. I don't put much stock in that, some do. I don't think it's a very accurate measurement, though it really helps some players I like and usually works for the guy I like more than the guy I don't (though the guy I like here is Roberto more than Al). I don't know when his glove really went, I don't doubt Clemente was probably better on D late career too.

WAA has them essentially equal for their careers too, like most measures.