Share your contrarian hobby opinions

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by JustinD

The absence of a white border does not in any way eliminate centering from a grading platform or equation. It continues to be just as measurable and obvious to the collector from the visual clues of the card of photo and text.

I was just as concerned about centering as were the majority of collectors I knew in 1982 as I am in 2022. Grading just recognized that value was and is placed in the beauty of symmetry as has been recognized in art since its creation.

The absence of a white border doesn't mean that a card won't still be judged on centering by a TPG; correct. But it does make the problem of bad centering far less obvious to a collector ripping a pack.

You and your friends must have been ahead of your time. I knew nobody that was super concerned about centering (outside of miscuts maybe...) in the 1980's or 90's before PSA. Grading advancing centering issues was not a straightforward proposition. Before PSA, price guides that spoke to centering would refer to "uneven borders" or "slightly off center, OC, miscut". There was none of the paranoia trying to determine say the difference between 60/40 v. 65/35 that eventually came along after PSA. TPG's totally codified that - and a I think a lot of how collectors think of centering today is mainly the result of cognitive bias.

[Yoda]

The Four Base Hits of King Kelly is the most beautiful baseball card ever produced.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

You and your friends must have been ahead of your time. I knew nobody that was super concerned about centering (outside of miscuts maybe...) in the 1980's or 90's before PSA. Grading advancing centering issues was not a straightforward proposition. Before PSA, price guides that spoke to centering would refer to "uneven borders" or "slightly off center, OC, miscut". There was none of the paranoia trying to determine say the difference between 60/40 v. 65/35 that eventually came along after PSA. TPG's totally codified that - and a I think a lot of how collectors think of centering today is mainly the result of cognitive bias.

I think the change in discussion only stemmed from dealers and the want and/or need to default only to a very inaccurate method of fair to near mint due to limitations of mail order. They did not recognize centering to make the ease of sending mail order clients the cards that did not move as fast in a storefront and show environment. While at shows and at brick and mortar any dealer of the time would say that the most visually pleasing cards always sold first and just as today the remainder were the more flawed examples.

The times and technology must be considered as to why you did not see this in advertising. It goes against ingrained human nature to ignore symmetry. It has determined human beauty and the progression of genetics since the dawn of biology. To state cognitive bias seems a misnomer and ignores the history of biology.

The comparison of actions toward consumer purchase tendencies during that time must use relatable comparisons. You have to toss a hand typed price list out as it would be certain death in today’s market. You have to be comparing similar sales methods. For example, the 1952 Mr. Mint find sold the high grade centered Mantles at a vast mark up over those less pleasing. Everyone knew they were the better cards and they were sold and treated as such.

The mail order dealers could be the single greatest reason for the success of large shows at the time as buying from them was such a poor experience as it was a true gamble. The need for large and local shows was the love for actually seeing what you were purchasing. Not sure of your age, but either imagine or remember the disappointment of waiting several weeks for your mint or near mint cards and opening something that had 3 full card creases or even was scorched from the great fire…it sucked.

Ps - I do want to say I respect your opinion, the point of this thread is to offer contrarian opinions and that is exactly what you are doing and I am hijacking your right to do that, sorry. I was just thinking my experience at the time may help put it in perspective. I wish I could somehow relate how frustrating blind mail order was, lol. Don’t miss it a bit.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by JustinD

The times and technology must be considered as to why you did not see this in advertising. It goes against ingrained human nature to ignore symmetry. It has determined human beauty and the progression of genetics since the dawn of biology. To state cognitive bias seems a misnomer and ignores the history of biology..

This is the root of my centering OCD, when I pulled out my kid collection after 25 years most of the cards were centered. Symmetry is what makes a good card great.

[JollyElm]

564. Centerrifical Force
The way your eyes immediately tell you if a card is rightfully centered enough for you personally, independent of what other collectors or TPGs may think.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by JustinD

To state cognitive bias seems a misnomer and ignores the history of biology.

We can agree to disagree. Miscut cards or 90/10 cards being recognized as ugly in the 1980's, - yes. 70/30 cards? No, or at least not in the majority. I think cognitive bias came into play in the early 2000's, when people would begin to understand / recognize the difference between a PSA 8 and 8 (OC) as being only centering. Both are sharp cards, and often the OC qualifier card is not egregiously OC. Would most collectors have shunned the qualified card in 1989? Maybe they would have, maybe not. I tend to think not. That's my only point with OC, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I love a perfectly centered card - who doesn't? My position is simply that a card that is somewhat off centered is not necessarily "not" a good looking card just because of that. I state cognitive bias because with the advent of PSA - you had a whole population of collectors suddenly shunning mildly OC cards at a time when just a few years earlier - nobody much cared. New people to the hobby were told by experienced collectors to "avoid OC cards" before they even fully comprehended what centering was. Your points about biology and centering are valid - but understand that at Topps in 1990 and earlier, nobody gave the first hoot about centering. A worker taking cards out of a cut tray was not looking at something like that. It wasn't part of their criteria. A card then was mint whether it came out of the pack 50/50 all the way around or 100/0. Part of why I think it's all at least partially cognitive bias is that cards that were never intended to be a certain thing are now being judged by a criteria which would have been considered utterly ridiculous at the time they were produced. So yes, inherently - truly centered cards look better. But not appreciating the ones that aren’t is at least partially cognitive bias IMO. We shun them because the hobby has told us to for more than 20 years now.

I’m 45. I would agree with you that mail order when I was a kid was a gamble at best, a nightmare at worse. I remember getting a 1955 Bowman Pee Wee Reese in a mailer I think from Bill Henderson. The card was raw - no toploader, no penny sleeve - sandwiched in-between thick, stapled cardboard. I'll give him credit - it was in the condition described. But I got lucky.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The general obsession with spot-on centering can cut it out. Did you get in this hobby for the perfect borders or what's contained within? Don't let your OCD determine how much more enjoyment you'll derive from a card when you could have a gorgeous 65/35 for a fraction of the cost.

Whoever convinced collectors to pay more for perfect borders was a genius. They should also be tarred and feathered.

[ullmandds]

I have grown to really appreciate and love "crudely" drawn cards...like many strips...33' eclipse...late 40's m & p...as long as the drawings accurately resemble the players...I think they are a really cool snapshot of the resources available at the time.

ok...maybe the henrich isn't such a great example!!!

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

The general obsession with spot-on centering can cut it out. Did you get in this hobby for the perfect borders or what's contained within? Don't let your OCD determine how much more enjoyment you'll derive from a card when you could have a gorgeous 65/35 for a fraction of the cost.

Whoever convinced collectors to pay more for perfect borders was a genius. They should also be tarred and feathered.

You say this, but it is honestly biological for some people. I look at a card that is really off center and it just throws everything off in my brain. Because that is how MY brain is wired. If your brain accepts off center cards and does not mentally flag them or downgrade them, then bully for you. But for some people, the way their brain is wired won't allow that.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

You say this, but it is honestly biological for some people. I look at a card that is really off center and it just throws everything off in my brain. Because that is how MY brain is wired. If your brain accepts off center cards and does not mentally flag them or downgrade them, then bully for you. But for some people, the way their brain is wired won't allow that.

Fair enough, and you can be assured I'm not making light of that. Most people who are passionate about collecting things seem to have OCD in some form or other. That's been my experience, anyway.

When it comes to perfect border OCD, I do wonder how less prevalent this would have been without this information having been ingrained into collectors, which stemmed from the first person who afforded a premium to perfectly centered cards. (Chances are, that person was both a good salesman AND suffered himself from PBOCD!) If nobody had made mention of it, the extent of the obsession would be greatly lightened.

Corner issues and creases are easier for me to understand, I guess, as those things represent actual damage. An O/C card was just made that way. ETA: I more easily understand anyone's aversion when it comes to miscuts, though. That's beyond O/C; the card is missing part of itself!

[Republicaninmass]

The 53 bowman color mantle is OC, I can't look at it without getting a headache.


I love the people arguing in this thread. The whole friggin point is a CONTRARIAN point of view!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

The general obsession with spot-on centering can cut it out. Did you get in this hobby for the perfect borders or what's contained within? Don't let your OCD determine how much more enjoyment you'll derive from a card when you could have a gorgeous 65/35 for a fraction of the cost.

Whoever convinced collectors to pay more for perfect borders was a genius. They should also be tarred and feathered.

Couldn’t agree more. Most cards 70/30 or better one way I have absolutely no problem with.


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