2002 Topps 206 Wagner Bat Relic Cards

[BobC]

Anybody else notice this auction that ended earlier today.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284804084891

The ending price stunned me, especially since it wasn't even a TPG graded card. And anyone have thoughts on this possibly not being a legit auction? Seeing an ungraded card like this going for a price I've never seen one go for before, and won by a bidder with "0" feedback to boot, doesn't raise questions in anyone's mind, does it?

[Pat R]

Yeah the price does seem out of line for what I've seen them sell for in the past. A graded PSA gem mint 10 of the same card sold for $310.70 in a 2016 HA auction. Also there were supposedly 300 of this particular Wagner bat card produced, There are two other Wagner bat cards from the same set a blue and Red version that supposedly only had 25 of each produced.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Yeah the price does seem out of line for what I've seen them sell for in the past. A graded PSA gem mint 10 of the same card sold for $310.70 in a 2016 HA auction. Also there were supposedly 300 of this particular Wagner bat card produced, There are two other Wagner bat cards from the same set a blue and Red version that supposedly only had 25 of each produced.

Exactly right. There are three different versions of this card, and this yellow frame/orange background one is the most common at 300 cards supposedly produced. And given the manufactured rarities they produce today, I don't view 300 of something as particularly that rare.

And like you, in the past I've seen these consistently going in the $300-$400-$500 range. Given the recent market surge and all, and the fact it is a Wagner bat relic and T206 image, I could see if these were maybe starting to go for double what they were, but suddenly going something like 15X-20X previous prices.....WOW! And like you said, the other two versions are even rarer.

Makes me wonder what the Cobb bat relic card from this 2002 Topps 206 set would go for nowadays. There's only the one version of that card (with a "bat off" T206 image), but you never seem to see one of those come up for sale at all.

I'm not 100% certain, but is that 2002 Topps Wagner relic card the first ever GU bat card for Honus ever produced? If so, maybe that helps explain the suddenly crazy price for it. Maybe it is being viewed like his GU rookie card. Never even thought about that before, but could that become a new collecting thing, collecting the very first GU cards issued for a particular player, and treating it like another type of rookie card?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by BobC

Exactly right. There are three different versions of this card, and this yellow frame/orange background one is the most common at 300 cards supposedly produced. And given the manufactured rarities they produce today, I don't view 300 of something as particularly that rare.

And like you, in the past I've seen these consistently going in the $300-$400-$500 range. Given the recent market surge and all, and the fact it is a Wagner bat relic and T206 image, I could see if these were maybe starting to go for double what they were, but suddenly going something like 15X-20X previous prices.....WOW! And like you said, the other two versions are even rarer.

Makes me wonder what the Cobb bat relic card from this 2002 Topps 206 set would go for nowadays. There's only the one version of that card (with a "bat off" T206 image), but you never seem to see one of those come up for sale at all.

I'm not 100% certain, but is that 2002 Topps Wagner relic card the first ever GU bat card for Honus ever produced? If so, maybe that helps explain the suddenly crazy price for it. Maybe it is being viewed like his GU rookie card. Never even thought about that before, but could that become a new collecting thing, collecting the very first GU cards issued for a particular player, and treating it like another type of rookie card?

Maybe they are getting hot Bob, I haven't been paying much attention to them lately until your post and I see one went for $1026 in an auction on ebay in march and there was another one that had a starting bid of $250 with an $850 BIN in march that someone hit the BIN on. And there's this one up for auction now that's already at $2,250
https://www.ebay.com/itm/18542199723...4AAOSwsaFifIB3

A Cobb bat card sold for $543 back in February so it would be interesting to see what one would bring now.

I have this Bazooka back that's #d to 30 that I pulled from a pack when they originally came out. I want to keep it but if they start trending like the bat card I might have to part with it.
img231.jpg

[timzcardz]

Call me a skeptic, but Topps doesn't even say that this is from a bat used by Wagner.

Wording:
"You just received an authentic
GAME-USED BAT CARD
of Honus Wagner
from Topps206."

Granted it may be a "game-used bat" card, and the card is "of" Honus Wagner.
Even if we accept that the unidentifiable piece of wood is from an actual game used bat, unfortunately they don't actually say that the piece was from a bat used by Wagner himself though.

Contrast that to the wording from a 2000 Upper Deck Babe Ruth Legendary Lumber card which states "On the front of this card is an authentic piece of game-used bat used by Babe Ruth in and official Major League Baseball game."
Still a bit of faith required, but UD is at least on record stating that it was used by The Babe.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Call me a skeptic, but Topps doesn't even say that this is from a bat used by Wagner.

Wording:
"You just received an authentic
GAME-USED BAT CARD
of Honus Wagner
from Topps206."

Granted it may be a "game-used bat" card, and the card is "of" Honus Wagner.
Even if we accept that the unidentifiable piece of wood is from an actual game used bat, unfortunately they don't actually say that the piece was from a bat used by Wagner himself though.

Contrast that to the wording from a 2000 Upper Deck Babe Ruth Legendary Lumber card which states "On the front of this card is an authentic piece of game-used bat used by Babe Ruth in and official Major League Baseball game."
Still a bit of faith required, but UD is at least on record stating that it was used by The Babe.

I hear you, but I'd be real surprised if the Topps 206 relic card was purposely worded like that to deceive people and it was not actually from a Wagner game-used bat. Topps went out and purchased around 4,000 original T206 cards to insert into packs, and did GU bat and jersey inserts for quite a few modern, as well as T206 era players. Why would they spend money for real T206 cards, but then not bother to get legit game used items from the players they were placed on cards with? ALL the GU relic cards, both modern and T206 era players, have the exact same wording. Also, each of the GU relic cards has that sticker, each with a unique number on it, to supposedly help guarantee the legitimacy of the card and relic. I sincerely doubt Topps would go to all that trouble, and risk the bad publicity that would follow, if they really didn't use game used bat and jerseys from the people they insinuated they were from on their cards.

I see how someone could possibly question the wording, but I really think you're misinterpreting the semantics. LOL If Topps really didn't use a legit Wagner GU bat to produce those relic cards, I've got to believe that would have been leaked to the public eventually, which would then discredit them and cast doubt on every other GU relic card Topps would issue from that point forward. Topps definitely would not have wanted that.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Maybe they are getting hot Bob, I haven't been paying much attention to them lately until your post and I see one went for $1026 in an auction on ebay in march and there was another one that had a starting bid of $250 with an $850 BIN in march that someone hit the BIN on. And there's this one up for auction now that's already at $2,250
https://www.ebay.com/itm/18542199723...4AAOSwsaFifIB3

A Cobb bat card sold for $543 back in February so it would be interesting to see what one would bring now.

I have this Bazooka back that's #d to 30 that I pulled from a pack when they originally came out. I want to keep it but if they start trending like the bat card I might have to part with it.
Attachment 516838

Pat, I hope so, but I can't see that kind of a sudden price surge though. Those recent sales you noted are where I thought things were at on these Wagner relic cards also. Why would one suddenly go for almost $7K, and not even a graded one at that, and to a person with "0" feedback? And I also saw the other Wagner bat relic card auction you referenced, that is currently running and closes on 5/21. That $2,250 high bid it is currently sitting at is way over the past market for these as well. What you may not have noticed though is that the current high bidder on this second auction ending 5/21 is also a person with "0" feedback. Could it possibly be the same person with "0" feedback that won this other Wagner bat relic card for the $6,901?

Additionally, there also appears to be other bidders on this second Wagner relic card that were also bidding on the one that just ended over the weekend, including the person that appears to have been the underbidder on that first Wagner bat relic card at $6,801. Pretty easy to tell they are the same bidders by looking at the feedback ratings. Too coincidental to have multiple bidders in both auctions with the exact same feedback, right?. So I'm going to be really curious to see how this second auction ends up on the 21st. Both of these Wagner bat relic cards are ungraded, so there is no difference there. But if the underbidder at $6,801 doesn't come back to outbid someone on the exact same card, currently sitting at a third of what they were supposedly willing to pay for it just a week earlier, I'm going to be really suspicious that there was something not quite kosher going on.

Both auctions are with different sellers, with each having over 1,000 positive feedback. So at least on the surface they appear legit. I'm also going to watch the feedback on the winner of the Wagner relic card from last Saturday, as well as the current high bidder on the Wagner that ends on the 21st. They are both currently at "0" feedback, but assuming the auction sale from last Saturday was legit, you would expect that the winner would be required to have paid that $6,901 winning bid long before the second auction ends on the 21st. And as such, you would also expect the seller to pretty quickly give positive feedback for such a big purchase. So if suddenly the feedback on the winner of that first auction jumps to "1", that would seem to further indicate it actually was a legit auction. And if the feedback for the current high bidder on the second auction suddenly goes to "1" also, that would be pretty good proof that the two bidders on both auctions are actually the same person.

But if both of these auctions end with a high bidder having "0" feedback, and neither of them goes to a positive "1" feedback anytime soon after they ended, I'm going to call BS on both auctions as ever having been legit. The only question then would be, what exactly were the people behind this possibly trying to accomplish. I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out over the next week with this second auction. I actually would love to see these be legit auctions, as I've got an orange background Wagner bat relic card, as well as a red background one, and one of the Cobb bat relic cards as well. Good luck with your Bazooka backed Wagner as well then.

This 2002 Topps 206 set, as well as the following year's Topps 205 set, have always been underappreciated and undervalued, IMO. Especially with some of the GU and autographed cards. And the real T206 and T205 cards that Topps inserted with both those issues are absolutely great. The fact that Topps came up with that unique, modern sized card holder to insert the smaller tobacco cards in, was genius. The look and presentation of them I feel is great, and they do go for a premium over raw T206 and T205 cards.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by BobC

Pat, I hope so, but I can't see that kind of a sudden price surge though. Those recent sales you noted are where I thought things were at on these Wagner relic cards also. Why would one suddenly go for almost $7K, and not even a graded one at that, and to a person with "0" feedback? And I also saw the other Wagner bat relic card auction you referenced, that is currently running and closes on 5/21. That $2,250 high bid it is currently sitting at is way over the past market for these as well. What you may not have noticed though is that the current high bidder on this second auction ending 5/21 is also a person with "0" feedback. Could it possibly be the same person with "0" feedback that won this other Wagner bat relic card for the $6,901?

Additionally, there also appears to be other bidders on this second Wagner relic card that were also bidding on the one that just ended over the weekend, including the person that appears to have been the underbidder on that first Wagner bat relic card at $6,801. Pretty easy to tell they are the same bidders by looking at the feedback ratings. Too coincidental to have multiple bidders in both auctions with the exact same feedback, right?. So I'm going to be really curious to see how this second auction ends up on the 21st. Both of these Wagner bat relic cards are ungraded, so there is no difference there. But if the underbidder at $6,801 doesn't come back to outbid someone on the exact same card, currently sitting at a third of what they were supposedly willing to pay for it just a week earlier, I'm going to be really suspicious that there was something not quite kosher going on.

Both auctions are with different sellers, with each having over 1,000 positive feedback. So at least on the surface they appear legit. I'm also going to watch the feedback on the winner of the Wagner relic card from last Saturday, as well as the current high bidder on the Wagner that ends on the 21st. They are both currently at "0" feedback, but assuming the auction sale from last Saturday was legit, you would expect that the winner would be required to have paid that $6,901 winning bid long before the second auction ends on the 21st. And as such, you would also expect the seller to pretty quickly give positive feedback for such a big purchase. So if suddenly the feedback on the winner of that first auction jumps to "1", that would seem to further indicate it actually was a legit auction. And if the feedback for the current high bidder on the second auction suddenly goes to "1" also, that would be pretty good proof that the two bidders on both auctions are actually the same person.

But if both of these auctions end with a high bidder having "0" feedback, and neither of them goes to a positive "1" feedback anytime soon after they ended, I'm going to call BS on both auctions as ever having been legit. The only question then would be, what exactly were the people behind this possibly trying to accomplish. I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out over the next week with this second auction. I actually would love to see these be legit auctions, as I've got an orange background Wagner bat relic card, as well as a red background one, and one of the Cobb bat relic cards as well. Good luck with your Bazooka backed Wagner as well then.

This 2002 Topps 206 set, as well as the following year's Topps 205 set, have always been underappreciated and undervalued, IMO. Especially with some of the GU and autographed cards. And the real T206 and T205 cards that Topps inserted with both those issues are absolutely great. The fact that Topps came up with that unique, modern sized card holder to insert the smaller tobacco cards in, was genius. The look and presentation of them I feel is great, and they do go for a premium over raw T206 and T205 cards.

You might be right about this Bob, The zero feedback bidder has bid it up to 6k now and this one and the one that sold 9 days ago have the same top 3 bidders, the one that sold from $1250 up to the $6900 and this one from $1325 to 6k are the same 3 bidders.