Were the T210's actually a 1910 issue or were they issued in 1911?

[Pat R]

I'm not suggesting that they were definitely released in 1911 but I think it's something to look into the article does say appears on not appeared. Did the 1910 date come from the teams that some of the players played on?

It wasn't like they took the pictures and a month later they were in the cigarette packs. A lot of work had to be done before they were distributed in the packs.

Earlier this year I posted this clip from March 14 1910 and they're just talking about taking the pictures of the Carolina players so the pictures are most likely from 1910 but how long before they made it into the packs? They were right in the middle of printing the T206's at the time they were talking about the T210's.

Charlotte_Daily_Observer_Mon__Mar_14__1910_.jpg

[nolemmings]

Patrick, I invite you to stay on the hunt, and as someone suggested these could have been in the stores for awhile (I confess I do not know the shelf life of smokes, now or then). Still, it seems very unlikely to me that they would make a formal announcement in March of 1910 that the cards were coming if they did not expect them to get distributed for another year.

[Piratedogcardshows]

I too believe them to have been printed in 1910 due to the player rosters matching for most teams. Tax stamps on packs containing cards have all been printed with the year 1910 I believe. Could they have been put out in 1911 with 1910 photos and rosters? It's a possibility but I lean towards 1910 and as always, defer to Jefferson Burdick and the others who cataloged the types. Amazing set that's just so scarce right now!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Jason

I too believe them to have been printed in 1910 due to the player rosters matching for most teams. Tax stamps on packs containing cards have all been printed with the year 1910 I believe. Could they have been put out in 1911 with 1910 photos and rosters? It's a possibility but I lean towards 1910 and as always, defer to Jefferson Burdick and the others who cataloged the types. Amazing set that's just so scarce right now!

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

[oldeboo]

Curious to know if there is a main prevailing thought on when the T206 OMSL and regular OM cards were distributed? Is it thought that Old Mill went from putting T206 cards into the packs then T210 cards shortly or immediately after?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Curious to know if there is a main prevailing thought on when the T206 OMSL and regular OM cards were distributed? Is it thought that Old Mill went from putting T206 cards into the packs then T210 cards shortly or immediately after?

The OMSL T206's were distributed on two different occasions once when they were printed concurrent with the Hindu southern Leaguers (34 subjects) in August 1909 then again concurrent with Piedmont 350's (all 48 subjects) in
March of 1910.

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August 14 1909
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[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The OMSL T206's were distributed on two different occasions once when they were printed concurrent with the Hindu southern Leaguers (34 subjects) in August 1909 then again concurrent with Piedmont 350's (all 48 subjects) in
March of 1910.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

So if the all 48 subjects group from T206 was shipping mid March 1910, that aligns well with the Old Mill ads that mention "baseball pictures" in early March 1910 and can be seen through mid August 1910. That ad seems to vanish, then reappears only a few weeks later down in Texas with a mention of "Texas League baseball pictures." The earlier "baseball pictures" ad seems to never surface again, and the "Texas League baseball pictures" are promoted heavily from early September 1910 through early December 1910.

Ads for Piedmont "baseball pictures" begin to surface in the southern states in late February 1910 and are heavy through September 1910. The same ad pops up less frequently through November 1910. The Piedmont "baseball pictures" were still being promoted while the Old Mill "baseball pictures" were replaced by the "Texas League baseball pictures."

My theory would be that T210 was regionally distributed with a heavy focus on that three month window in late 1910. This would have given them five months or so to get things sorted while T206 was being wrapped up. T210 very well may have been distributed well into 1911 until stock vanished. If T210 was being distributed regionally, it makes sense that it would have been distributed around the same time. Did a series or two fall outside of that window? Maybe...

Looking at the possibility of regional distribution for T210 makes even more sense when you look at the leagues and locations compared to pop reports. Having less known examples of cards from places like rural Kentucky and West Virginia adds up. There is a pretty solid correlation there I believe.

[edjs]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

Both guys mentioned in the article you posted first played for Asheville in 1911, but both their t210 cards reflect the team they played for in 1910, and they both also played on a different team in 1909. So both Albert Landgraff and Lee Sharp(e) only played on the team they are depicted on with their t210 card in 1910.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the March 14 1910 newspaper article is true and the photo's for series 2 weren't even taken yet do you think that series 2-8 could have been done in 6 months? It took over 2 years to finish the t206 printings.

I do not follow this set closely, so others more into it can comment, but yes, I believe the cards could have been produced in a few months without great difficulty. I have not seen evidence that the series were issued sequentially rather than at or near one time. I always considered the set as having been identified by series simply to associate with specific leagues. Although I suppose it is possible that after some initial series showed promise the makers decided to issue more, but I am skeptical, especially as the Southern Association is the 8th and final series and was a very popular and prominent league, not likely an afterthought. Then again, Series 6, 7 & 8 are considered by many to be more difficult to obtain, which could point to a later release date, at least for those.

I would guess that it was quite common to take both team and player photos before and at the start of every season, for use in dope books/guides, local newspapers, etc., and that it therefore created no particular burden to line up the T210 photo shoots early in the year. As for production, these cards are not lithographs like T206, so there was no real artwork or multi-color inking involved– just a simple B&W photo with an even simpler nameplate. The posters here who delve into the printing and production process may chime in, but it seems to me that the turnaround time would be far less for the T210s.

I have scans of a great many of the cards and at one time years ago researched player/team combinations. I can look again, but my general recall is that many, many players are depicted on teams they played for in 1910 but not 1911, and essentially none had it the other way around. I realize that this does not disprove an argument that they were photographed in 1910 and not released until the following year, but that would sure leave a lot of outdated cards being placed in the market. I bring this up because it was not an uncommon occurrence for just 1910– it happened a lot back then that players changed teams and leagues regularly. It seems to me the makers would have been in tune to that and it would not have been overly difficult for them to simply update the new team affiliations on their very basic nameplate, drop/add players or shift a player into a new series if he changed leagues– all in time for the 1911 season if that was the targeted release date.

Finally, I took a quick look at Lew Lipset’s encyclopedia and saw that the Portsmouth team associated with many of the Series 2 players actually moved to Petersburg in July, 1910 yet the cards all name only Portsmouth. This shows that series to have been done before the move, so again, unless these various series were spread out well over time and/or were sequentially released, 1910 is a pretty safe bet. Also, note that T211 Red Sun, which uses many of the same photos as are found in series 8 of T210, are also considered as released in 1910, so it appears it was not a problem getting the photos taken and the cards produced in that year.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: I said the T210s were not lithographs like T206 with multi colors and artwork, but they actually were lithographs--just not in color and with very little artwork (mostly whitewashed backgrounds and the occasional change of team log)o