Restored Honus Wagner at SCP Auctions

[atx840]

Before the restoration

"This example once suffered from a surface crease which detracted from the beauty of the card. "

[uniship]

$2m seems conservative to me. IMO.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by atx840

Before the restoration

I'd rather bid on this version. Not that I would, but this one, not the other one.

[uniship]

Agreed. Sacrilegious to do anything to that original card. IMO.

[timzcardz]

I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


When my kids were young (20 years ago) when we'd go out for dinner on a Friday night, I would teach the kids a new word. One of those nights, the word was penultimate.

Within a couple of weeks, my son's grammar school teacher misused the word and got called out on it!


So, was the word misused in the auction description, or are they cleverly pointing out that the restored version is the next to last prize!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


When my kids were young (20 years ago) when we'd go out for dinner on a Friday night, I would teach the kids a new word. One of those nights, the word was penultimate.

Within a couple of weeks, my son's grammar school teacher misused the word and got called out on it!

Who was your kid's teacher, Mr. Dorskii?

[ocjack]

The write-up states "“AUTHENTIC RESTORED,” a designation instituted by PSA for use on higher end vintage treasures."

Have they used this designation before or did they institute it expressly for the Wagner?

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


When my kids were young (20 years ago) when we'd go out for dinner on a Friday night, I would teach the kids a new word. One of those nights, the word was penultimate.

Within a couple of weeks, my son's grammar school teacher misused the word and got called out on it!


So, was the word misused in the auction description, or are they cleverly pointing out that the restored version is the next to last prize!

To be fair, it was the ultimate prize before they added pen to it.

[SteveS]

How much of a card has to be left for it to be "authentic"? If I take a T206 Harry Steinfeldt and draw Honus over it so it looks realistic, is that an "authentic" T206 Wagner? Because in my opinion, this treasure is now ruined.

[chriskim]

It is a Wagner painting now, not a card anymore.

[robertsmithnocure]

That T206 Wagner looks to have a bit more than a surface crease (singular) in the “before” picture.

What happened to this PSA 7 1933 Goudey Ruth that is also in the SCP Auction. I am not sure how they can rate this as a “9/10 in the eye appeal department.”

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1933...-LOT48853.aspx

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

That T206 Wagner looks to have a bit more than a surface crease (singular) in the “before” picture.

What happened to this PSA 7 1933 Goudey Ruth that is also in the SCP Auction. I am not sure how they can rate this as a “9/10 in the eye appeal department.”

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1933...-LOT48853.aspx

I think they meant the back is 9/10 in the eye appeal.... which I agree.

How come this Ruth can zoom in much closer than the Wagner? Are they trying to hide the true current condition of the Wagner?

[GasHouseGang]

That card looks weird. Like they drew him with too much makeup. The other Wagner is the the one at the Baseball HOF.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I think they meant the back is 9/10 in the eye appeal.... which I agree.

How come this Ruth can zoom in much closer than the Wagner? Are they trying to hide the true current condition of the Wagner?

WTF - that card looks like it had a few too many days out in the sun - how is that a 7!?

[cgjackson222]

[QUOTE=timzcardz;2153575]I LOVE the beginning of the description . . .


"Every hobby has its penultimate prize,"


Hahaha, thank you for pointing that out. They either didn't know the meaning, or it was a Freudian slip.

By the way, they have apparently since update the description to remove the "pen" and left the "ultimate"
https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909...-LOT48850.aspx

[Leon]

That really is funny. "a surface crease" More like a bicycle spoke card LOL.

It sounds like Larry Fritsch's (RIP) grading. And if you ordered 8 cards and returned 3 (about normal) due to missing chunks and described as VG , then you got 5 really good deals. Always a prompt refund but you had to write what your issues were, with each one, when returning cards.
He had some scarce cards back in the day. Always fun...

Good luck to whomever goes for this Wagner. It's a humdinger.
.

Originally Posted by atx840

Before the restoration

"This example once suffered from a surface crease which detracted from the beauty of the card. "

[5-Tool Player]

I predict 1.33 Million for this patch up job

[oldjudge]

IMO that is one really ugly Wagner. It looks like someone stuck Jimmy Durante’s nose on Honus’ face.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 5-Tool Player

I predict 1.33 Million for this patch up job

that'd save me some indigestion!

[Gary Dunaier]

Heh... I'm happy with my reprint.

[Rhotchkiss]

The card hasn’t received a bid since the first day. It’s gotten 11 bids and the reserve had not been met. The card currently sits $1.2mm below the AH’s estimate.

Although I would love to see this “example” get to the AH’s $2mm+ estimate, My money is on the card not hitting its reserve and not selling (a pass).

I also believe that the card would do better in it’s pre-restoration condition; in other words, I think the card is worth less in its current state than before it was restored.

[tulsaboy]

I'm not a pre-war collector, though I sure like to learn from this group and to see everyone's collections. They are mind blowing. I am curious to watch over the next few decades to see how prevalent "restoration" becomes in the sportscard industry. In other collectable/art markets, it is perfectly acceptable (and sometimes actually adds value.) Major museums regularly do cleanings of old art, and as part of those cleanings often gently touch up some of the art where age/weathering/poor treatment has taken its toll. When art is defaced by museum visitors, it is often restored to eliminate/remove the damage. I know that similar approaches are taken with vintage posters and prints. Being familiar with vintage cars, it is of course routine to restore older vehicles (though there is a niche market for untouched, factory original examples as well.) I completely understand that the idea of filling in paper loss, recoloring areas that are missing color, removing marks etc. is repugnant to (probably) most sportscard collectors. Personally, I like em just as they are, warts and all. But tobacco cards, like the T206, are now well over 100 years old. And they are cardboard. Cards that have now been slabbed are probably mostly protected from further damage from handling and accidents, but the vast bulk of cards that are not in holders will continue to age and sustain damage. I am just interested to see whether or not these items, as they push through their second century of existence, begin to experience more "restoration." And, most importantly, whether or not that becomes an accepted practice.
kevin

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

I'm not a pre-war collector, though I sure like to learn from this group and to see everyone's collections. They are mind blowing. I am curious to watch over the next few decades to see how prevalent "restoration" becomes in the sportscard industry. In other collectable/art markets, it is perfectly acceptable (and sometimes actually adds value.) Major museums regularly do cleanings of old art, and as part of those cleanings often gently touch up some of the art where age/weathering/poor treatment has taken its toll. When art is defaced by museum visitors, it is often restored to eliminate/remove the damage. I know that similar approaches are taken with vintage posters and prints. Being familiar with vintage cars, it is of course routine to restore older vehicles (though there is a niche market for untouched, factory original examples as well.) I completely understand that the idea of filling in paper loss, recoloring areas that are missing color, removing marks etc. is repugnant to (probably) most sportscard collectors. Personally, I like em just as they are, warts and all. But tobacco cards, like the T206, are now well over 100 years old. And they are cardboard. Cards that have now been slabbed are probably mostly protected from further damage from handling and accidents, but the vast bulk of cards that are not in holders will continue to age and sustain damage. I am just interested to see whether or not these items, as they push through their second century of existence, begin to experience more "restoration." And, most importantly, whether or not that becomes an accepted practice.
kevin

Kevin you have some really valid points. Thanks for sharing them.
I do not believe (but I could easily be wrong) that restorations will be common in Card collecting. Even with the higher dollar cards. For one the way grading companies grade and then classify it (ie instead of raising the "grade" it gets either and Authentic, Altered, or Restored grade on it. Just as you see on the one in SGC. That results in less bidders at the higher prices like you have seen in several recent but past auctions. In addition card collecting has a "purity" to it and an appreciation for the life of that card. So anything that takes away from that devalues it somewhat

[drcy]

With old art and such, a lot of it is about preservation too-- deacidifying paper. For a lot of things that will deteriorate, it is recommended.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Kevin you have some really valid points. Thanks for sharing them.
I do not believe (but I could easily be wrong) that restorations will be common in Card collecting. Even with the higher dollar cards. For one the way grading companies grade and then classify it (ie instead of raising the "grade" it gets either and Authentic, Altered, or Restored grade on it. Just as you see on the one in SGC. That results in less bidders at the higher prices like you have seen in several recent but past auctions. In addition card collecting has a "purity" to it and an appreciation for the life of that card. So anything that takes away from that devalues it somewhat

Part of the problem from my perspective is that so many of the decisions made by the TPGs about what constitutes an "alteration" to begin with is borderline arbitrary. A card that has tape on it hasn't been altered? Really? But if you remove the tape, then it has? Lol. But only sometimes? Uhh, OK. And if the surface of a card gets dented by something, then that lowers the grade because a card with an indent is a damaged card. Unless of course the surface damage we're talking about was caused by a screw down holder smashing down the corners. That's not "damage", that's an "alteration", tantamount to trimming or recoloring a card. And speaking of timing, apparently even that's OK to do with some cards but not others. Some of this stuff is just ridiculous. The screw down holder damage equating to an alteration is the probably the one that irks me the most. The TPGs should treat that like they do with creases. Just have a rule that says a card can't grade higher than a 5 if it has screw down damage or something like that, but don't stamp it with some scarlet letter and no explanation at all for why the card received it. The fact that PSA does not differentiate between "trimmed", "recolored", and "screwed down too tight" on their slabs is a real shame. Because I guarantee the market would value those all differently if they knew the reason behind the grades.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by atx840

Before the restoration

"This example once suffered from a surface crease which detracted from the beauty of the card. "

What a mess! It looks like somebody ate it and puked it out!

Yawl need to cut this restorer some slack. He was given this nightmare of a card to work on, and it must have been extremely difficult. He had to spend days looking at this card under magnification and try to recreate the print spots. Obviously, matching the ink, which was made a hundred and ten years ago, wasn't easy to do. If you study the orange background, you'll see the colored-in areas appear yellowish. Again, what a mess. They should have just left the thing alone.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

What a mess! It looks like somebody ate it and puked it out!

Yawl need to cut this restorer some slack. He was given this nightmare of a card to work on, and it must have been extremely difficult. He had to spend days looking at this card under magnification and try to recreate the print spots. Obviously, matching the ink, which was made a hundred and ten years ago, wasn't easy to do. If you study the orange background, you'll see the colored-in areas appear yellowish. Again, what a mess. They should have just left the thing alone.

I agree that restoration is difficult, but you shouldn't restore a card if you have to rebuild the face of the player. This Wagner was a better choice for restoration.

[mrreality68]

I would be proud if I owned the unrestored card.

Regardless of how the restorer did and obviously it “worked” because someone is willing to pay a lot for this card.

But I like they way it was and I personally do not like the card being touched up