Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

[oldjudge]

Not only did Ruth change the game, but he saved baseball after the Black Sox scandal. I think Cobb was two and Wagner three. Unfortunately, we will never know how Gibson would have done in the majors but because he never played there I cannot consider him.

[Exhibitman]

I notice only one pitcher on the original list. In terms of pitchers I would list the top 5 as:

Johnson
Grove
Young
Mathewson
Alexander

[oldjudge]

Kid Nichols had a short career but certainly deserves to be on any list of pitching greats. He started at the same time as Cy Yound (1890) and had more wins than Young in that decade. I believe he ranks number one in WAR/year played.

[RCMcKenzie]

Agree on Nichols. He is very high on the all-time WAR stat. I don't know all the metrics that go in to it, but it seems to churn out the right names. Eddie Collins and Alex Rodriguez are also high on the list, the other names are the ones most would guess.

[rats60]

When Babe Ruth faced the best Negro League pitcher Satchel Paige, he hit a 500 foot home run off him. Ruth would have dominated any competition. Josh Gibson on the other hand struck out on 3 pitches after Paige intentionally walked 2 guys to face Gibson. Ruth is easily the greatest hitter ever.

Bill James ranks Honus Wagner #2. Although Wagner wasn't the hitter that Ruth was, he was the best hitter in the NL from 1900-1912 and was a gold glove level fielder at the most difficult position, shortstop. James has Willie Mays at #3.

[tedzan]

" Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era? "

Why is this poll limited to just the "Pre-War Era" ?

BABE RUTH is the greatest in Baseball in any era....19th Century, Pre-WWII, Post-WWII.

I believe in Divine Intervention.....George Herman Ruth was considered an "incorrigible" youngster; and, Brother Matthias at St. Mary’s
Industrial School straightened him out. And, introduced the young Ruth to Baseball and showed him how to play the game.

Then, when the game of Baseball was in serious trouble after the 1919 World Series, the Good Lord, in a dream, inspired Miller Huggins
to persuade Col. Jacob Ruppert (Yankees owner) to acquire Babe Ruth from Boston in December 1919.....and, the rest is history.



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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[John1941]

Originally Posted by rats60

When Babe Ruth faced the best Negro League pitcher Satchel Paige, he hit a 500 foot home run off him. Ruth would have dominated any competition. Josh Gibson on the other hand struck out on 3 pitches after Paige intentionally walked 2 guys to face Gibson. Ruth is easily the greatest hitter ever.

So you're condensing the careers of two guys who combined played for over 40 years into one at-bat each. That doesn't prove anything at all.

As I said, I haven't seen any unbiased studies proving that the Negro Leagues were equal to the major leagues. But it's clear that they were at least high minor league quality. Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Luke Easter, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, Satchell Paige, and others all played in the Negro Leagues at the same time as Gibson.

Gibson led his league in home runs 11 times, and for his career had an OPS+ of 215. Bill James in his 1985 abstract estimates that a player moving from AAA to the majors would retain about 82% of their offensive production. I think the true number for the Negro Leagues would be between 82% and 100%. 90% seems reasonable to me. That would result in a career OPS+ of 194, four points higher than Ruth.

Part of this is just me being contrarian. I'm not certain of how good the Negro Leagues were, just having fun arguing.

[53toppscollector]

I think it is fruitless and unfair to try to compare baseball players from different eras, especially wildly different eras. Comparing guys from the 1800s, when they pitched from 45 or 50 feet away and players didnt wear gloves, to guys playing today, just seems unreasonable. Its like asking which mode of transportation is better, the wagon or a Porsche. When it was either take a horse/wagon or walk, the wagon seems like the best idea ever. But now, if I offered you either a wagon or a Porsche, you'd probably take the Porsche, if time was any kind of consideration.

The game of baseball was completely different in 1905 than what it is today. Mostly because humans are different and they have evolved, alongside technology. Babe Ruth is amazing, but did he ever actually face any lefthanded pitcher who threw what is accepted today as a slider? He wasn't facing lefties throwing 96-98 consistently with 88-91 mph sliders.

Equipment was different, the game was played differently, and players were not built like they are today. Matty was 6'1/195, WaJo was 6'1/200, they were two of the most dominant pitchers of their era, and by today's standards, they'd be undersized righties.

I understand that there are statistics like ERA+ and OPS+ that adjust for era, but I don't think they can truly adjust and allow for direct 1 to 1 comparisons. The mound was different, park dimensions were a lot different, and the players themselves were a lot different. I mean, there were no night games until 1935. I think its easy to compare WaJo and Matty and Plank and Cy Young to each other, or Wagner to Eddie Collins. I think its a lot harder, and pretty pointless, to compare Mike Trout to Ty Cobb.

Different games, different eras. Just my $0.02

[rats60]

Originally Posted by John1941

So you're condensing the careers of two guys who combined played for over 40 years into one at-bat each. That doesn't prove anything at all.

As I said, I haven't seen any unbiased studies proving that the Negro Leagues were equal to the major leagues. But it's clear that they were at least high minor league quality. Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Luke Easter, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, Satchell Paige, and others all played in the Negro Leagues at the same time as Gibson.

Gibson led his league in home runs 11 times, and for his career had an OPS+ of 215. Bill James in his 1985 abstract estimates that a player moving from AAA to the majors would retain about 82% of their offensive production. I think the true number for the Negro Leagues would be between 82% and 100%. 90% seems reasonable to me. That would result in a career OPS+ of 194, four points higher than Ruth.

Part of this is just me being contrarian. I'm not certain of how good the Negro Leagues were, just having fun arguing.

What were Josh Gibson's career stats vs. Satchel Paige? Paige was a major league talent. The best I could find he hit .000 against him. People like to throw out that prewar MLB stars weren't that great because they didn't play against Negro League stars. If those stars couldn't hit Paige, how would they have done against Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, ect?

I disagree with your assertions about the Negro Leagues. Only 8% of MLB today is African Americans. In 1960 when every team was integrated it was only 9%. Even a decade later it was less than 15%. It peaked at 18.7% in 1981. If the Negro Leagues were at the same level as MLB, that number would have approached 50%. Especially after expansion in 1961-62 and 1969. I believe the level of play was far below that of MLB and even AAA. The top level of players were of MLB quality but the vast majority were not.