The Cleveland Guardians? Yes, It's Official

[rholmes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

gfy

Better watch out, your intelligence is showing.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by rholmes

Better watch out, your intelligence is showing.

The one who can point out the transgressions of one person while overlooking the same transgressions of another is whose intelligence (or lack of) is showing.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Because "Spiders" is offensive to the millions of arachnids who are crushed or murdered by imperialist exterminators every year.

Many thumbs up emojis

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[timn1]

I think Guardians is just fine.

Why the hell would a team want to name itself the Spiders? It sounds ridiculous on the face of it, plus did you ever take a look at the Cleveland Spiders' record in 1899, their last year - 20-134, plus a nasty multiple-ownership scandal? - That's what you want to celebrate? Just because it's from the era we like to collect doesn't mean it's a good name, or good karma.

Taking potshots at a team's new name is about the easiest and most pointless activity I can think of. Go collect some cards, why dontcha.

Misanthropically,

Tim

[timn1]

Don't you people complaining about "cancel culture" have anything important to worry about?

Originally Posted by nolemmings

That's my point-- there is nothing real new here. The Stanford team changed its name from the Indians to Cardinals in 1972, and several other teams followed suit in the ensuing few years. There was no such term as cancel culture, now it's considered some kind of movement fostered by a sort of evil, anti-American, what have they done to my great country cabal. Oh the horror!

[Chuck9788]

How is their new logo not a trademark copyright infringement of the Los Angeles Angels?!?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Chuck9788

How is their new logo not a trademark copyright infringement of the Los Angeles Angels?!?

That's one of the first things I noticed too. Whether or not it is a trademark infringement, it certainly is remarkably similar. Might want to rethink it before all the gear gets mass produced, although come to think of it, I like it more than I do the Angels logo.

[packs]

Can anyone name one good thing you can’t do anymore? People are obsessed with calling out cancel culture but what have you lost in anything that’s happened? That is a sincere question. What is lost by changing the name of a baseball team that clearly mocked its source? What is lost in monuments to Confederate traitors? What’s lost in respecting people’s identities? I truly am curious as to what it is you feel is so important to hold onto in any of these modern changes?

[paul]

Originally Posted by packs

Can anyone name one good thing you can’t do anymore? People are obsessed with calling out cancel culture but what have you lost in anything that’s happened? That is a sincere question. What is lost by changing the name of a baseball team that clearly mocked its source? What is lost in monuments to Confederate traitors? What’s lost in respecting people’s identities? I truly am curious as to what it is you feel is so important to hold onto in any of these modern changes?

It isn't just Confederate statues that have been torn down. When the statue toppling craze was at its height, statues of Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglas came tumbling down. Lincoln's sin was that he supposedly wasn't good to Indians. I'm not sure what the rationale was behind Frederick Douglas.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by timn1

Don't you people complaining about "cancel culture" have anything important to worry about?

Probably not.

Cancel culture and it's younger cousin, critical race theory, are just the leading contenders for the moral panic du jour.

FWIW, here is a picture of one of the Guardians my wife took on our annual trip back to Ohio a few years ago.

[packs]

I don't know if it's the statue you're referring to but the Lincoln issue I'm aware of had to do with a statue depicting a kneeling slave before him. I think there might be a better way to convey the same historical impact.

I also heard about a Frederick Douglas statue that was removed in Rochester but it's removal was an act of vandalism. Again, not sure that's the story you're referring to.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Tabe

The name isn't great - a tribute to bridge pillars?!? - but, at the end of the day, I don't care. The owners are free to do whatever they want with the name.

actually owners are bowing down to woke crowd
other wise they would have just stayed the same

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Can't reason with stupidity.

I agree. Certainly your ignorant responses have proved that point.

[Tom Hufford]

As for me, I'll be looking forward to the first Guardian-Angel series in 2022!

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Tom Hufford

As for me, I'll be looking forward to the first Guardian-Angel series in 2022!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Chuck9788

How is their new logo not a trademark copyright infringement of the Los Angeles Angels?!?

No imagination whatsoever.

Who was it that determined modern logos have to be so bland? I thought the new LA Rams logo was horrendous, but this one gives it a run for the money.

[sdimag]

I quit watching baseball,football,and basketball 2 years ago. If sports owners want to cater to the woke folks,go for it! But you will never get another dollar from me! Let the woke crowd support them!

It just sucks the Guardians Name and so does Major League Baseball

Ron Petersen

[frankbmd]

Gee I sure hope they produce a Guardian vest with logo, made of Kevlar.

Might make it safer to attend the games.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

I will always refer to them as the Indians.
I will always refer to the Washington football club as the Redskins.
Same for all other changes.

And I will ALWAYS stand for our National Anthem.

That's just me.
Bob
Besides, the Guardians? What a horrible name.

Do you say that Hank Aaron played for the Beaneaters? Did Mantle play for the Highlanders?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by megalimey

actually owners are bowing down to woke crowd
other wise they would have just stayed the same

Well, if that's what they want to do, they're free to do so.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by paul

Lincoln's sin was that he supposedly wasn't good to Indians.

He also explicitly stated that black people were inferior to whites and said he would gladly keep slavery if that would save the Union. He said he was opposed to "bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races." While serving in Illinois, he supported laws that barred black people from voting or serving on juries or interracial marriage.

[gawaintheknight]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Oh, they're not stopping there. They won't be satisfied until every team has a name like Unicorns, Rainbows or Butterflies.

Who's next? Possibly the New York Jets

https://www.foxnews.com/media/concha...global-warming

But it is what it is. What can you do? So, I try to find humor in their dumbass ways. After all, this is the same group of dumbasses that think there are more than 2 genders.

You mean scientists?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

[gawaintheknight]

Originally Posted by packs

Can anyone name one good thing you can’t do anymore? People are obsessed with calling out cancel culture but what have you lost in anything that’s happened? That is a sincere question. What is lost by changing the name of a baseball team that clearly mocked its source? What is lost in monuments to Confederate traitors? What’s lost in respecting people’s identities? I truly am curious as to what it is you feel is so important to hold onto in any of these modern changes?

I was wondering the same thing.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Probably not.

Cancel culture and it's younger cousin, critical race theory, are just the leading contenders for the moral panic du jour.

FWIW, here is a picture of one of the Guardians my wife took on our annual trip back to Ohio a few years ago.

Was just driving over the bridge today. It is a great, old bridge, and the sculptures are wonderful (there are 4 of these posts/columns in total on the bridge) and it literally takes you right to the front entrance of Progressive Field, as you can see from the stadium in the background. Nice photo. The name sucks though. Don't know of anyone in Cleveland happy with the new name. I would expect to see people still coming to the park wearing Indians gear and even Chief Wahoo images despite the name change. Will be interesting to see if they try to ban people from coming into the ballpark with such at some point. I believe that they still sell Chief Wahoo items in the team gift shops yet, despite doing away with the logo on uniforms and caps worn by players or displayed around the stadium back in 2018. If they are truly going to abandon the name and image, they should do so. But it seems they are still going to maintain and keep the copyrights on those and keep making money off the name and images as long as they can. Hypocrisy and greed as usual. If they truly were so behind the changes in the name and images as a show of respect for native Americans, shouldn't they simply disassociate themselves from both the name and image entirely, and not continue to make money off them?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He also explicitly stated that black people were inferior to whites and said he would gladly keep slavery if that would save the Union. He said he was opposed to "bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races." While serving in Illinois, he supported laws that barred black people from voting or serving on juries or interracial marriage.

In college I had to read a book titled "Lincoln Reconsidered". A very interesting read and insight into Lincoln's thinking and true nature. Would have been very interesting to see how history would have turned out had Lincoln not been assassinated. By Booth and his fellow Confederate associates doing so, they basically fired up the abolitionists and anti-Southerners in the Norther states, and in the government, and gave them more than enough ammunition to push forward their more extreme anti-Southern views and legislation, and possibly change how the ex-slaves were to be treated. If I remember correctly, it seemed that Lincoln was going to push for sending the freed ex-slaves (and any already free blacks living in the Northern states) back to Africa. Believe he already had support in Congress to do so, and money set aside to assist with re-colonization of freed slaves to Liberia I believe. His assassination ended that possibility though. Also seem to remember that his Emancipation Proclamation was not entirely about just freeing the slaves, but was really more of a warning and punishment to the Southern states that if they didn't stop their rebellion, he would declare the slaves free so the Southern states couldn't continue to keep them as slave labor.

[Mark17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I am sure that you know that your post is disingenuous BS. Senator Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK in his youth, later calling it the biggest mistake of his life. He renounced the KKK, racism and segregation. Nathan Bedford Forrest was a traitor, an unrepentant racist and a sociopathic murderer.

Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Should I get rid of my Manny rookie and get the one in a high school uniform or the one in street clothes?

I lost it with this movement when San Francisco changed the name of a school previously named after Abraham Lincoln, because of his role in the 1837 Black Hawk War.

Speaking of Black Hawks, COME ON Chicago. How about the Chicago Loop or something.

[seanofjapan]

As someone who has never been to Cleveland I wasn’t sure what to make of the new name, wondering why the team was now named after an English newspaper.

But then it was explained the name comes from some statues on a bridge (pictured in comments above). Are these famous landmarks in Cleveland that all the locals know about? If so, it seems like a good choice for a name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Am I politically incorrect to still own this? Bet you're noticing that logo a lot more than you would have in the past.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Mark17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest




Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

+1

But as I said earlier, you can't reason with stupidly. But I guess the jackass hasn't read your post yet, otherwise he would call it "disingenuous BS" as he did mine.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

You may want to re-examine your assumptions here. There is certainly still significant poverty in native communities, but tribes are considered sovereign nations and in many states are quite rich due to operating casinos and other businesses. Here in Oklahoma, our governor had the brilliant idea that he would renegotiate the gaming compact with the tribes to increase the revenue for the state. The tribes basically told him to f--k off and made it stick. The tribes are probably the most powerful political constituency in Oklahoma behind the oil and gas industry. So, throwing a little charity their way under the assumption they'll be grateful for your largesse may fail spectacularly.

Funny (now) story. My wife is an Ohio girl and while I am not originally from there, it is where my family lives now. A number of years ago, on a visit, I (without even thinking) bought an Indians ballcap with the Chief Wahoo logo on it. When I got back home (without even thinking) I wore it out in public, I got a lot of dirty looks. Needless to say, the hat was relegated to yardwork duty and, within a year, was in the trash.

As for the name, I love it. Cleveland is a great town and the Guardians of Transportation are a significant local landmark. They are part of the Hope Memorial Bridge which connects the Ohio City neighborhood to downtown. The ballpark sits at the east end of the bridge. My wife and I were back there a few weekends ago for a wedding. As is our habit, we went to Ohio City for lunch and a visit to the Market Garden microbrewery (which uses a Guardian in their corporate logo.) There was a little art fair going on in a plaza across 25th Street from the West Side Market and there was a lot of Guardian inspired artwork on display. I even bought this t-shirt:



It really made me realize how much the Guardians of Transportation are part of Clevelands identity.

Good point Jeff, I was just thinking that there are some native American people, or charities for them, that would likely appreciate getting a piece of the action. Those groups doing well probably don't care as much though, but I can't believe that all native American groups are doing that well that they wouldn't like a little extra income.

Usually the actual protesting of the Indians name is done basically by maybe a dozen or so people that show up outside the stadium on opening day every year, and then seem to be pretty much done for the rest of the year. So the bulk of the complaining and protesting is really coming from people online and out of town who aren't actually in Cleveland as far as I can tell, or are even fans of the team or otherwise attending games. It seems to be a small minority of the native Americans who are actually upset about the name Indians.

Anyway, was downtown today and had lunch over at Heck's which is in Ohio City across the bridge from the stadium, and stopped in the West Side Market afterwards to pick up some pad thai chicken. Great place to shop. Interesting note, Heck's restaurant is in the Ohio City neighborhood of Cleveland, and is three or four doors down from the house where John Heisman was born and raised.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Am I politically incorrect to still own this? Bet you're noticing that logo a lot more than you would have in the past.

Hey, I still have my vintage 1940's Rempel doll of Chief Wahoo. Definitely not getting rid of that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hey, I still have my vintage 1940's Rempel doll of Chief Wahoo. Definitely not getting rid of that.

My collection is looking worse by the moment.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

You mean scientists?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

You should probably have your full name in your post.

Let me help you with that, Ted Clayton.

[Peter_Spaeth]

uh oh

[ksfarmboy]

Pete that is one of the best looking 52 large Baughs I’ve seen. So tough to find centered as good as that one is.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by peanuts

Folks from Cleveland, did the campaign to pick the Spiders ever really take off locally? It always seemed to get good traction online, but never saw it mentioned in any Ohio media.

Not really that I ever heard of. Did see some online stuff about emailing suggestions and such to the team, but if I remember correctly, there was some caveat that in so doing that you had to give up the right to that name and only allow the team to copyright and use it. The team was first and foremost out to make sure they, and they alone, controlled whatever name they ended up selecting so as to maximize and control whatever profit they could make out of the new name and logo. All the while still selling Indians and Chief Wahoo gear for right now. You watch, the team will maintain the Indians and Chief Wahoo copyrights for now, in case they can still profit off it somehow. Meanwhile, their probable public excuse for keeping them is to say they don't want anyone just taking them over and to start producing items that will be disrespectful to native Americans.

There are another couple of names I thought might be good ones. Cleveland used to have a popular hockey team called the Barons, in the AHL, and for a while had the Crusaders in the NHL. Since neither team is with us any longer, both of names should have been available. Either of those rolls off the tongue better than the Guardians. And you could probably resurrect some version of the old logos as well. And if you used the Crusaders, that kind of goes along with the Cleveland State University Vikings and the Cleveland Cavaliers as having a somewhat similar medieval group represented by the name.

[Casey2296]

I like the "Barons" Bob, rolls off the tongue nicely. Could also be a nice interlocking "CB" logo ala "NY" Yankees. The problem with 3 syllable team names is most of them don't roll off the tongue well. The Indians and Buccaneers being two exceptions to that rule that come to mind.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

As someone who has never been to Cleveland I wasn’t sure what to make of the new name, wondering why the team was now named after an English newspaper.

But then it was explained the name comes from some statues on a bridge (pictured in comments above). Are these famous landmarks in Cleveland that all the locals know about? If so, it seems like a good choice for a name.

Yeah, we know of them them, but they aren't all that famous. Don't forget this is the town that has "A Tower that is Terminal, overlooking a Lake that is Erie!" It is the "Mistake on the Lake", and we also have the (in)famous burning Cuyahoga River. Which was famously immortalized in song by Randy Newman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0zG5aux9zs

In fact, the Cuyahoga River is just across the street and down the hill from the stadium, and Cleveland is in Cuyahoga County and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park is just a few miles south of the stadium as well. Doesn't roll off the tongue as well, but could have called them the Cleveland Cuyahogans. A somewhat unique name, and since it is a mixture of names that different native American tribes called the river, it has a tie to the old team name of the Indians, while not directly offending anyone (at least no one I can think of). We already have the best state rock-n-roll song in the world that gets played during 7th inning or late inning stretches (Hang On Sloopy), as well as Ian Hunter's anthem (Cleveland Rocks) to play after victories. We also have favorite sons like Drew Carey and Bob Hope (whose Father the Hope Memorial Bridge is actually named for) Oh, and Bob Hope was actually an owner of the Indians back in the 60s and appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated's June 3, 1963 cover in an Indians uniform, with Chief Wahoo prominently displayed.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/201...pid=will-smith

And who can forget "Hot In Cleveland", or the Rock-N-Roll HOF and Museum on the lakefront, or "The Christmas Story" house and museum in the Tremont section of town. And of course you can also see the old League Park and museum on Cleveland's near East side, which was built originally in 1891 and was where the Cleveland Spiders, and later the Naps and Indians actually played. It is also the site of the first de facto All-Star game on July 24, 1911 when the Naps played a team of assembled All-Stars in an exhibition game for the benefit of Addie Joss' widow and family. That is the game where Cobb didn't have his Tiger's uniform and borrowed a Cleveland uniform to play in.

https://www.ozy.com/the-new-and-the-...ar-game/77109/

And eventually the Negro League team the Cleveland Buckeyes played at League Park as well. Maybe another good name they could have chosen for the team if not for The Ohio State University probably having a stranglehold on that copyright.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My collection is looking worse by the moment.

Peter,

If you think those are that bad, go back to what Chief Wahoo looked like in the 40s when they last won a World Series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkCBblpoMCw

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I like the "Barons" Bob, rolls off the tongue nicely. Could also be a nice interlocking "CB" logo ala "NY" Yankees. The problem with 3 syllable team names is most of them don't roll off the tongue well. The Indians and Buccaneers being two exceptions to that rule that come to mind.

Makes sense. And here are what some of the old logos looked like.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

I especially like the very first one of the big letter "B" with the top hat sitting on top of it and cocked slightly to the side, with the hockey stick running through it. Just replace the hockey stick with a baseball bat and you have a winner. Also like the large "C" with with a picture of the state of Ohio in the middle of it with a "B" superimposed on the state. That would look really great on a uniform. And the character with the monocle and top hat is kind of neat as well. Just replace the hockey uniform with a baseball uniform and you have a great mascot as well. And you could try to entice an actual Baron from England to show up for a promotion or something maybe. LOL

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

America was named for the Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci, who was a slave owner and slave trader. I am now offended by being known as an "American." I want that name changed and everything named using the word America. American League, American Football Conference, NATIVE AMERICAN, "America the Beautiful", Bank of America, Great American Ballpark, United States of America, North America, South America, Central America, etc. etc. etc.
But hey, we can all feel great now that a baseball team in Cleveland has changed from their terribly offensive name "Indians" to the "Guardians."
What a joke.

I hope that I don't offend anyone by saying this: I'm offended that you are offended

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I hope that I don't offend anyone by saying this: I'm offended that you are offended

That's it, I'm leaving the hobby.

Brb

[fkm_bky]

It’s actually quite relevant of a logo if you know that the statues of the Guardians have that same winged design on their helmets. But why would people know that, it’s not like it isn’t readily available information on the web. Let’s just be lazy and say it’s stupid.

I’m not a Cleveland fan and have never been there but it took all of 15 seconds to educate myself.

Bill

Originally Posted by perezfan

No imagination whatsoever.

Who was it that determined modern logos have to be so bland? I thought the new LA Rams logo was horrendous, but this one gives it a run for the money.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by sdimag

I quit watching baseball,football,and basketball 2 years ago. If sports owners want to cater to the woke folks,go for it! But you will never get another dollar from me! Let the woke crowd support them!

+1

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

+1

But as I said earlier, you can't reason with stupidly. But I guess the jackass hasn't read your post yet, otherwise he would call it "disingenuous BS" as he did mine.

Bob Byrd never massacred Black Union Soldiers as they were trying to surrender. They are not equivalent. You are a moron.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Mark17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest




Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

Look. This discussion has nothing to do with the thread. It started because vintagetoppsguy tried to disparage Biden, who I am no fan of BTW, by showing a picture of him with Robert Byrd and suggesting that that was worse than having a bust honoring Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Never mind that Robert Byrd served in the Senate for 51 years and was minority leader at the time, obviously someone Biden was obligated to work with. Never mind that Byrd joined the KKK as a youth but later called it the biggest mistake of his life and renounced racism and segregation. Never mind that Forrest was not just a member of the KKK but its Grand Wizard. Never mind that Forrest massacred Black Union soldiers at Fort Pillow as they tried to surrender. Never mind that the false equivalency could not be more obvious. The level of evil displayed by Forrest is in no way comparable to Robert Byrd. Not equivalent at all. For pointing this out, I was called stupid and a jackass. How ridiculous. I am done. This has nothing to do with Cleveland adopting new name.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Bob Byrd never massacred Black Union Soldiers as they were trying to surrender. They are not equivalent. You are a moron.

And you are not God. You don't get to decide which sins are forgiven and which are not, you ignorant jackass.

[BCauley]

I’ll never understand why people bother getting into these kinds of arguments. Nobody ever thinks they’re wrong. Everybody thinks they’re right. Nobody is going to change anyone’s mind.

If anything it just makes people look insecure and unstable.


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