Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

Johnny630 · #1 08-31-2020, 08:03 AM

Sadly the beat goes on in this industry, Nothing really changes, consequences haha what is that!. This country has way more to worry about than this. Look at all the victims of the past recent month in thus country that have been told oh that’s what you have insurance. Sadly I think this story has went to the Back burner of disappearance.

drcy · #2 08-31-2020, 12:07 PM

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

conor912 · #3 08-31-2020, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

I couldn�t have said it better.

HRBAKER · #4 08-31-2020, 02:18 PM

Theatre of the Absurd, cardboard style.

Johnny630 · #5 08-31-2020, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

Perfectly said!!

They're Addicted To Grading.

swarmee · #6 08-31-2020, 02:46 PM

The judge wasn't saying that nobody suffered damages, just that the sole plaintiff did not. And so if he didn't lose any money as a result of wrongly graded cards, his case falls apart.

Rich Klein · #7 09-01-2020, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

The judge wasn't saying that nobody suffered damages, just that the sole plaintiff did not. And so if he didn't lose any money as a result of wrongly graded cards, his case falls apart.

I don't know how many of you all are on twitter but following Paul Lesko for any hobby related court issue is a must. Paul did a very nice job explaining the whole case. His twitter handle is @Paul Lesko.

Regards
Rich

perezfan · #8 09-01-2020, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

If we are still doing "Post of the Year" around the end of December, I would nominate this one. Concise, poignant, and right to the point in one brief sentence.

Hopefully the FBI's case turns out to be far more successful than the class-action, and we won't have to see these criminals keep wiggling off the hook.

HRBAKER · #9 09-01-2020, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

If not, you couldn't talk "Pop" or GPA.

68Hawk · #10 09-01-2020, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

You're assumption that the primary role of grading is to assign judgement as to altered or unaltered.

I would argue the primary role is authenticity of item, and secondarily should be to give an assessment of condition so that it may be valued by pursuing collectors against other existing copies.

Alteration is even more subjective in my opinion than condition.
Who's to say a car has complete original running gear when certain parts are unnumbered?
What exactly is 'original' patina on 18th century furniture?
Those cards you like to collect, are you so sure none that conform to an assessment of unaltered were'nt in fact changed by early owners but in ways that the years have hidden? Even when passed around a group of well regarded hobbyists you'd get different assessments between them.

To me it's a bit silly to have canniptions over the 'dark arts' of todays bad actors in the business.

Grading should simply confer on opinion of Authentic for the issue, or reprint.
Subsequent to that all judgement should be left to the buyer as to judging condition based on eye appeal, whether the card measures correctly for the issue, does it have wear such as wrinkles/rubs etc, and any other valued criteria.
Those assessments could be included in a report on any slabbed card, and the buyer then weights them according to his preference and pays to that measure.

Simples.

conor912 · #11 09-01-2020, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

You're assumption that the primary role of grading is to assign judgement as to altered or unaltered.

I would argue the primary role is authenticity of item, and secondarily should be to give an assessment of condition so that it may be valued by pursuing collectors against other existing copies.

Alteration is even more subjective in my opinion than condition.
Who's to say a car has complete original running gear when certain parts are unnumbered?
What exactly is 'original' patina on 18th century furniture?
Those cards you like to collect, are you so sure none that conform to an assessment of unaltered were'nt in fact changed by early owners but in ways that the years have hidden? Even when passed around a group of well regarded hobbyists you'd get different assessments between them.

To me it's a bit silly to have canniptions over the 'dark arts' of todays bad actors in the business.

Grading should simply confer on opinion of Authentic for the issue, or reprint.
Subsequent to that all judgement should be left to the buyer as to judging condition based on eye appeal, whether the card measures correctly for the issue, does it have wear such as wrinkles/rubs etc, and any other valued criteria.
Those assessments could be included in a report on any slabbed card, and the buyer then weights them according to his preference and pays to that measure.

Simples.

Regardless of the logic here, part of the service being sold is determining if something is altered and, if it is determined to be so, not slabbing it.

68Hawk · #12 09-01-2020, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

Regardless of the logic here, part of the service being sold is determining if something is altered and, if it is determined to be so, not slabbing it.

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Leon · #13 09-02-2020, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Part of the problem is all of the outright and obvious mistakes the TPGs make. Many are laughable and some almost seem like favorable grades for certain submitters. I am sure I can tell a real vs a fake card as well as most graders. I don't use grade much any longer because of it. That said, if it's a higher end card it has to be graded to bring the real value. It's a conundrum.

As to the subject it will be very interesting to see the final outcome of the FBI's efforts. Hopefully some crooked folks go to jail as they did before.

These all have Hand Cut on their SGC flips and none are hand cut. Go figure. They all came out of a pack I still have. Grading is a crapshoot at best. I hope the new company starting up is better than what we have now.

.

steve B · #14 09-02-2020, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Is that an offer of a bet of $20K that I can't tell if a card is altered?

If the card is in hand....
And what set.

Most of the ones I'm familiar with it's not going to be a problem.

Somehow it is for the Grading companies, which are apparently now hiding their mistakes/incompetence/collusion behind regrading and denial.

Johnny630 · #15 09-02-2020, 08:31 PM

When Getting Paid for a Opinion How Can Any Opinion Rendered Be Held Accountable ?

68Hawk · #16 09-02-2020, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Is that an offer of a bet of $20K that I can't tell if a card is altered?

If the card is in hand....
And what set.

Most of the ones I'm familiar with it's not going to be a problem.

Somehow it is for the Grading companies, which are apparently now hiding their mistakes/incompetence/collusion behind regrading and denial.

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

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