Newly Discovered Old Judge Player

[oldjudge]

Paul-Have you checked all TSNs from March-May 1888? I was using a copy of the microfilm from Notre Dame's Library and they are missing some issues from that period. You might also try some period Chicago newspapers if you have access to them (I did not).

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Paul-Have you checked all TSNs from March-May 1888? I was using a copy of the microfilm from Notre Dame's Library and they are missing some issues from that period. You might also try some period Chicago newspapers if you have access to them (I did not).

I've been working from the set of Sporting News available online through SABR, and it is missing the issues from that time period. I have looked (through newspapers.com) at Chicago papers, papers from Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota (the St. Paul Globe had awesome coverage of the Western Association), Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas... Fischer is such a common name that the searches bring up thousands of hits, so I could be missing some mention in my further filtering. But it is amazing how much baseball news there was in even small local papers of that time - even if it was just a blurb saying "Alcott of New Jersey has been signed by St. Louis of the Western Association". That's why I'm surprised I've seen nothing about a Fischer signing with the Maroons.

Arthur Clarkson was with the Maroon in spring training. The Tribune reported on March 25 that he signed with the Maroons. His first spring start was in mid-April. Boyd's signing shows up in the Sporting News in February, and he shows up in an article about the club in the Chicago Daily News as late as April 11.

Is there any sense of how deep into the summer of 1888 changes were being made to the Old Judge cards that year (new team designations, new players photographed/added)?

[oldjudge]

Unlike 1889, when updates to cards were common, I can’t recall any updates in 1888. Jake Beckley is listed with both the Whites and the Pittsburgh NL team in 1888, but I have never seen the Pittsburgh card and I believe that this listing may be an error. Off the top of my head, the only player that I recall having cards with two teams in 1888 is Charles Sprague who was shown with the Maroons and the White Stockings in separate images. This, however, was a function of Sprague actually being in two different photo shoots. He began the season with the NL team, was there for the photo shoot, but was released before the season started. He then moved to the neighbor Maroons and had photos taken with them.

[chlankf]

Since Schwartwood was mentioned.

[prewinter]

I've seen scans of Beckley, identified with Pittsburgh, with a "Copyright Goodwin & Co. 1888" on them. Were those printed in 1889? I've also seen Crooks cards with Omaha. Also printed in 1889? I guess I should read the fine print in the book about how to distinguish 1888 cards from 1889, even if they have a 1888 date on the front.

[oldjudge]

The copyright date reflects the date when the image was taken. The format of the card, as explained in the book in multiple places, indicate when the card was issued. The copyright date is not a meaningful piece of information.

[Joe_G.]

For reference, a couple more team change updates in 1888 not already mentioned. They are rare but there are several examples. In most cases it appears Goodwin sometimes issued cards based on the early rosters, before player signings were complete, with assumption players would stay with same team as previous year. Players who fall into this category include:

John Clarkson - 1888 OJ with his old team, Chicago, & plenty of cards with the team he would actually collect stats with in 1888, Boston)
Ned Hanlon - Card with Boston, a team he was rumored to sign with during pre-season, but would stay with Detroit
Pa Harkins & Hardie Henderson both have 1888 cards with Brooklyn (team they played for in 1887) but then corrected to Baltimore and Pittsburgh respectively
Patrick O'Connell with Omaha and Des Moines
Joe Quinn with both Des Moines & Boston

My recent acquisition of Barney Gilligan with Detroit is an example of an 1888 team change that occurred after the start of the season, 4/25 signing, and was issued an 1888 OJ with the new team.

One true team update that occurred during 1888 would be Gid Gardner who would collect stats with both Washington and Philadelphia and issued cards with both teams.

[oldjudge]

Joe-I think we are talking about two different things. When I talk about a team change I mean a pose that was issued with one team during 1888 and then corrected to show the movement to a new team, also during 1888. That would be two 1888 cards with the same pose and two or more different teams. The examples that you point out are something else. The Hanlon-Boston, as you know, was Hanlon’s only 1888 card. The others have 1888 cards on different teams, but none, as far as I know, is a corrected card. They were just previously unissued 1888 poses that were issued with the new team.

[Joe_G.]

Yep, I was citing cards that don't fit the definition you put forth. Hardie Henderson did have a single pose with two different teams in 1888 (222-3 Brooklyn & Pittsburgh) but that is an exception to the more commonplace occurrence of certain poses with one team and other poses with another team. For that matter, I also have not verified Henderson 222-3 was correctly catalogued:

222-3 White cap, hands at chest

a. Henderson, P., Brooklyn (B-0516)
b. Henderson, P., Pitts ("Pitts" in script) (Fa)
c. H E Hender_on, P., Brooklyn (Fa)

[oldjudge]

That’s interesting. My old copy of the Cartophilic Society listing only shows (a) and (b) for Henderson pose 3. What listing are you looking at?

[prewinter]

O'Connell never played for Des Moines. In 1888 he only played for Omaha. Why is there a card of him with Des Moines?

Quinn wasn't sold to Boston until August 24, so if he was on an Old Judge card from 1888 with Boston that would suggest that they were issuing changed cards relatively late in the summer.

Coughlin signed with Chicago on May 26, and was gone from the club by July 17.

I suppose I shouldn't expect too much from a card set released more than 130 years ago, but the timing of things seems all over the place.