T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

tedzan · #1 01-12-2020, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I just looked at the total population numbers for the 37 cards. Nobody really jumps out at me. Especially the 6 cards you added stats to. Not counting Huggins, numbers range between 444-481 for PSA. Not counting HOF cards, the others of the 37 range between 333-507 cards. Lower population numbers for the minor league cards. I was looking for an obvious short print in the group.

Ron

I, too, first checked out the pop-report data. The PSA data is sort of confusing. The SGC pop-report data is straightforward. And, like you, I did not see any significant differences.
So, I checked out the Baseball-Reference.com for these 37 players. There I found out that George Hunter's only MLB stats were in 1909 (Brooklyn). Due to his weak performance,
both as a pitcher and an outfielder, Brooklyn sent him down to Montreal. Hunter faired better in the Minors (1907-1908, 1910-1917).

Therefore, George Hunter is my candidate for the subject who most likely was replaced.

Who, replaced him is still a good question.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #2 01-15-2020, 02:01 PM

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

I think I arrived at a hasty conclusion in post #904. Further research indicates there was a lot of changeability going on when this group of 37 guys were printed.
Approx. 30 % of this group of 37 guys were either Retiring or being Traded. Therefore, trying to figure out which subject was replaced, and which subject was the
replacee 110 years ago is just a guessing game.

Anyhow, what I really find fascinating is how American Lithographic produced such high quality (complex) Sports and Non-Sports cards more than a Century ago.

Listed here, are the guys in this group of 37, who Retired or were Traded just prior to (or during) the print run of these T206's....circa Spring of 1910.

Becker ��.. April 4, 1910 (Traded to NY Giants)
Charles �.......��...� May 1910 (Retired)
Howell (portrait) ..�.......��..�� May 1910 (Retired)
Huggins (portrait) ��.... February 3, 1910 (Traded to St Louis NL)
Hunter .......��.. May 1910 (Retired)
Marshall ��.Oct 1909 (Retired)
McElveen ��..Apr 26, 1909 (MLB debut with Brooklyn)
Mitchell (Toronto) ��..Aug 23, 1909 (Acquired by New York Highlanders)
Moran (Providence) ��.Sept 1, 1909 (Acquired by Boston NL)
Rhoades (hands at chest) ��...�.. Aug 1909 (Retired)
Starr ...................................��. July 16, 1909 (Traded to Phillies)

TED Z
.

Ronnie73 · #3 01-15-2020, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

I think I arrived at a hasty conclusion in post #904. Further research indicates there was a lot of changeability going on when this group of 37 guys were printed.
Approx. 30 % of this group of 37 guys were either Retiring or being Traded. Therefore, trying to figure out which subject was replaced, and which subject was the
replacee 110 years ago is just a guessing game.

Anyhow, what I really find fascinating is how American Lithographic produced such high quality (complex) Sports and Non-Sports cards more than a Century ago.

Listed here, are the guys in this group of 37, who Retired or were Traded just prior to (or during) the print run of these T206's....circa Spring of 1910.

Becker ��.. April 4, 1910 (Traded to NY Giants)
Charles �.......��...� May 1910 (Retired)
Howell (portrait) ..�.......��..�� May 1910 (Retired)
Huggins (portrait) ��.... February 3, 1910 (Traded to St Louis NL)
Hunter .......��.. May 1910 (Retired)
Marshall ��.Oct 1909 (Retired)
McElveen ��..Apr 26, 1909 (MLB debut with Brooklyn)
Mitchell (Toronto) ��..Aug 23, 1909 (Acquired by New York Highlanders)
Moran (Providence) ��.Sept 1, 1909 (Acquired by Boston NL)
Rhoades (hands at chest) ��...�.. Aug 1909 (Retired)
Starr ...................................��. July 16, 1909 (Traded to Phillies)

TED Z
.

Your right about it being a guessing game. The unknown is what fascinates me the most about this set. Even though it was 110 years ago, so much history and information is still unknown or lost. It's like we are archeologists deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well maybe not at that level but you know what I mean.

tedzan · #4 01-15-2020, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Your right about it being a guessing game. The unknown is what fascinates me the most about this set. Even though it was 110 years ago, so much history and information is still unknown or lost. It's like we are archeologists deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well maybe not at that level but you know what I mean.

Ron

An excellent analogy.
And, here is my take. I liken our research to the Rosetta stone, which I'm sure you know allowed us to decipher the Egyptian hieroglyphics by reading the accompanying Greek text.
In fact, I have read the entire Greek text, and what it tells us is very fascinating in that it reveals that life has not changed these past 2200 years. I'll tell you what it says in private.

TED Z
.

tedzan · #5 01-27-2020, 07:40 PM

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

x

.

In summarizing....... American Lithographic printed the majority (190 subjects) in the 350-only Series with their stylistic frame design for the AMERICAN BEAUTY,
BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, DRUM brands. Furthermore, they included these five Assorted backs....CAROLINA BRIGHTS, El PRINCIPE de GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR,
and TOLSTOI (displayed below).
However, a select Group of 37 subjects which were printed with the A - B - C - D backs were NOT printed with CB, EPDG, OM, PB backs. I find this quite interesting
in that it suggests to us that these 37 guys are an "exclusive" Group of T206 cards which were printed on sheets of their own. Furthermore their press run was very
likely quite early in the game (circa Spring of 1910). I base this on my understanding that the CAROLINA BRIGHTS and POLAR BEAR backs weren't printed until the
Summer of 1910.

The TOLSTOI backs were introduced at the beginning of the 350-only Series print runs, therefore a good number of these T206's are found with this back. Thanks to
Ronnie73 for researching the TOLSTOI backs (see Post #891), regarding this unique Group of 37 subjects.The Major Leaguers (26 subjects) in this Group of 37 were
printed with the TOLSTOI back. But it appears that the Minor League (11 subjects) were NOT printed with the TOLSTOI back.

v----------------------------------------------------------------------- 350 Series Assorted Subjects backs -------------------------------------------------------------------v

Checklist of this select Group of 37 subjects that are 350-only series No-Prints with respect to CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, and POLAR BEAR.

Arndt *
Becker
Butler *
Cassidy *
Charles
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downs *
Fletcher
Hall *
Hoffman (St Louis)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Malarkey *
Marquard (portrait)

Marshall
McBride
McElveen
McGinley *
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto) *
Moran (Providence) *
Myers (batting)
Paskert
Phelan *
Poland *
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers

* Denotes Minor Leaguer

TED Z
.

Ronnie73 · #6 01-28-2020, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

The TOLSTOI backs were introduced at the beginning of the 350-only Series print runs, therefore a good number of these T206's are found with this back. Thanks to
Ronnie73 for researching the TOLSTOI backs (see Post #891), regarding this unique Group of 37 subjects.The Major Leaguers (26 subjects) in this Group of 37 were
printed with the TOLSTOI back. But it appears that the Minor League (11 subjects) were NOT printed with the TOLSTOI back.

TED Z
.

I'm pretty sure 2 of these Minor League Tolstoi's will surface. One is in both of the population reports and the other shows as a possible David Hall card.

Last year I spent a lot of my time looking at the 150's and 350's. Since we are on the 350's subject, there's a couple things that stand out. The first thing is Demmitt NY, O'Hara NY, and Lundgren KC keep popping up as odd cards but I get it since they were all team changes. The other 4 cards that share a similar print run are Byrne, Cross, Mowrey, and Rossman. 5 of the 7 cards share the "No CB, EPDG, OM, PB" but they also have no AB, BL, CY, DR.

The second thing is there are 136 Polar Bears in the 350 Print Group. 2 of them being Demmitt and O'Hara STL. By using the 12 card row, some of them would have been possibly double printed or short printed. 11 different sheets would equal 132 cards. Would they have made a 12th sheet for the other 2 cards and double print 10 other cards, or short print the 11th sheet to add the last 2 cards and make 4 short print cards. Then after some time, maybe replace 2 of those 4 short prints with the Demmitt and O'Hara to make 2 super short prints? Just a crazy thought.

tedzan · #7 01-28-2020, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

The second thing is there are 136 Polar Bears in the 350 Print Group. 2 of them being Demmitt and O'Hara STL. By using the 12 card row, some of them would have been possibly double printed or short printed. 11 different sheets would equal 132 cards. Would they have made a 12th sheet for the other 2 cards and double print 10 other cards, or short print the 11th sheet to add the last 2 cards and make 4 short print cards. Then after some time, maybe replace 2 of those 4 short prints with the Demmitt and O'Hara to make 2 super short prints? Just a crazy thought.

Ron
I seldom (if ever) differ with you; however, my research places the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara in the 350/460 series print group. I note this in Post #134 in this thread.

Apparently, American Litho (ALC) started their first press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. This 1st print run of PB backs was on approx. 136 subjects of the 350-only series.
Followed by the 2nd print run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) of PB backs on the 66 subjects of the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement* of the Sovereign 66 subjects (apple-green backs) which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series".

Consider the following...�
Joe Doyle & Bob Rhoades (POLAR BEAR No-Prints) retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations.

v------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v Joe Doyle v (below Cobb)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm)

I arrived at this theory by comparing Pop Report data of Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations with subjects in the 350 series vs the 350/460 series. The population numbers
overwhelmingly suggest that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations fit in with the 350/460 print group numbers.

* Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.

TED Z
.

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