Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by KaBooM

C'mon. He was just restating the "NM" grade ascribed to the card by the grading company. I routinely do the same thing when I resell graded cards. Who on here has sold a graded "Near Mint 7" card and then advertised such as being "EX-MT" or lower?

His full description was:

1933 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG #160
GAI 7 GRADED
VERY RARE
NEAR MINT
GREAT CORNERS AND NICE EYE APPEAL
SMOKE FREE HOME

The "Great corners and nice eye appeal" wasn't GAI talking. But I get what you're saying. I don't think the seller was aware of any alterations.

When this thread started I was 60% on the side of the buyer because I'm tired of hearing about all the people, who pay big money thinking they are getting quality assets, learning later the asset was doctored. And I thought, well, in this instance the doctoring was caught, so good, that card never did deserve to be in a "7" holder.

But after this discussion, which I thought was worthwhile, I have come to decide that it would be too big a can of worms if people could routinely buy graded cards, crack them out, then return them. So now I'm more like 60% behind the seller I suppose. Reluctantly. I wish we had heard from the buyer in case there was more to his side of the story.

While some people brought chainsaws to the thread (I was called "Operating with a broken moral compass", Insane, Asinine, a Nerd, Stupid, and Ridiculous in one post alone,) others respectfully and articulately voiced their views, as you have,.

In the end I agree that if you buy a slabbed card, as a buyer you need to take your precautions up front (ask questions, trust the grading service, or be willing to risk the gamble,) and if you want to return a purchase it must be still sealed in its original slab undamaged, just as purchased.

[KaBooM]

I won't share details since the sellers don't want to provide a "playbook" to other fraudster buyers, but eBay's always side with the Buyer policy has completely gotten out of hand. I guess that they have overreacted and don't want to be liable for selling knock off/damaged goods so they deem that the less vulnerable path is to always side with the buyer. 2 examples:

#1. Buyer wants return due to damaged holder. Returns worthless common in lieu of original card. Seller still chasing eBay to provide redress.

#2. Buyer buys "sealed unopened box". Upon opening all packs and failing to pull desired high value rookie demands refund and eBay sides with Buyer.

In both instances sellers were legitimate high volume sellers with significant transactional flows.

[bigfanNY]

Just now I came across a 1935 Goudey Ruth graded GAI 7.5 The seller also notes that SGC has determined that the card is trimmed. To be honest if SGC can determine trimming then PSA should also be able to determine trimming in the case. And that would change my perspective on this thread. I sided with buyer because I do not think it is ok to sell altered cards in a case. And I still think that.
But in this case the buyer could have left the card in the GAI case and submitted to PSA. Then seller would have refunded money and got his card and case intact and offered it for sale just like the Ruth.
In the end Seller loss was not the $5k vs what he can sell a raw trimmed 33 Gehrig for. It is what he would have sold GAI 7 listed as trimmed vs raw Gehrig listed as trimmed. Which is much less in dollar terms.
Jonathan

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Just now I came across a 1935 Goudey Ruth graded GAI 7.5 The seller also notes that SGC has determined that the card is trimmed. To be honest if SGC can determine trimming then PSA should also be able to determine trimming in the case. And that would change my perspective on this thread. I sided with buyer because I do not think it is ok to sell altered cards in a case. And I still think that.
But in this case the buyer could have left the card in the GAI case and submitted to PSA. Then seller would have refunded money and got his card and case intact and offered it for sale just like the Ruth.
In the end Seller loss was not the $5k vs what he can sell a raw trimmed 33 Gehrig for. It is what he would have sold GAI 7 listed as trimmed vs raw Gehrig listed as trimmed. Which is much less in dollar terms.
Jonathan

Do we know if PSA said the alteration on the Gehrig was a trim? Perhaps it was something more subtle, that only came to light after being cracked out. Again, info from the buyer would be helpful.....

If an altered card remains in a "7" holder, it's likely that somewhere down the line, a seller will (conveniently) forget to mention the alteration.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Just now I came across a 1935 Goudey Ruth graded GAI 7.5 The seller also notes that SGC has determined that the card is trimmed. To be honest if SGC can determine trimming then PSA should also be able to determine trimming in the case. And that would change my perspective on this thread. I sided with buyer because I do not think it is ok to sell altered cards in a case. And I still think that.
But in this case the buyer could have left the card in the GAI case and submitted to PSA. Then seller would have refunded money and got his card and case intact and offered it for sale just like the Ruth.
In the end Seller loss was not the $5k vs what he can sell a raw trimmed 33 Gehrig for. It is what he would have sold GAI 7 listed as trimmed vs raw Gehrig listed as trimmed. Which is much less in dollar terms.
Jonathan

True, regarding the actual dollar loss...

But regarding the portion of your statement in bold... PSA cannot even detect trimming (or lack thereof) with cards residing outside of the slab. This has been documented over and over again, with new examples pouring in on a daily basis. And many of the trimmed cards (residing in numbered slabs) are missing huge portions of their original borders. So I would not put too much stock in their ability to detect trimming, whether inside or outside of the holder.

[jbbama]

slightly off topic....

Just another reason if your a seller to never , ever, leave money in Paypal.....they can figure out their BS policies later , meanwhile they dont have my funds tied up.

[painthistorian]

PSA & SGC will almost ALWAYS determine that GAI holdered cards are trimmed even if it was not, especially higher graded cards, as they get paid either way. For three years, we submitted cards to GAI when they were a regarded grading service and those cards should be gradeable with any service, although the grades were generally 7 or under.

SGC & PSA cannot usually determine trimming without examining the edges and that is very hard to do while in a slab...so, in conclusion, cracking out a GAI card, well its the buyer's risk, not the seller, although the seller should state in the listing that cross over to PSA or SGC is unlikely but once cracked out, the buyer owns the card.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

the seller should state in the listing that cross over to PSA or SGC is unlikely but once cracked out, the buyer owns the card.

Would that even matter on EBay or are individual seller terms (I.e. “if slab is cracked or altered in any way, no returns will be accepted”) always trumped by Ebays seller terms?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

PSA & SGC will almost ALWAYS determine that GAI holdered cards are trimmed even if it was not, especially higher graded cards, as they get paid either way. For three years, we submitted cards to GAI when they were a regarded grading service and those cards should be gradeable with any service, although the grades were generally 7 or under.

SGC & PSA cannot usually determine trimming without examining the edges and that is very hard to do while in a slab...so, in conclusion, cracking out a GAI card, well its the buyer's risk, not the seller, although the seller should state in the listing that cross over to PSA or SGC is unlikely but once cracked out, the buyer owns the card.

I am convinced most TPGs can not and/or will not detect a lot of trimming. Check the small borders, especially with pointy corners, and run the other way. Some GAI cards were good a long time ago but ones still in their holders are there for a reason, most times. It isn't because they are more valuable in GAI slabs either.