Analysis of current AH's rules regarding shill/internal/sketchy bidding practices

[Peter_Spaeth]

And as long as I'm being my cheerful and charming self, let me add that I really don't like this hit and run posting business, where people do a self-serving post and then announce they won't be back to engage with questions. It's OBNOXIOUS in my humble opinion. I am sure Chris is busy, but if he is too busy he shouldn't have posted in the first place. Besides, he isn't running Microsoft.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And as long as I'm being my cheerful and charming self, let me add that I really don't like this hit and run posting business, where people do a self-serving post and then announce they won't be back to engage with questions. It's OBNOXIOUS in my humble opinion. I am sure Chris is busy, but if he is too busy he shouldn't have posted in the first place. Besides, he isn't running Microsoft.

I totally agree Pete. In the past when people employed this tactic of responding to a thread and declaring this will be their only response usually they are found to be guilty of something??

[Leon]

As someone who gets flamed for being a little bit in the spotlight I don't blame Chris (or anyone) one bit for speaking their piece and not coming back. Darren Hughes comments above just about make me want to puke. The WOW, oh wow...kind of crap is internet mob mentality 101. If Chris wanted to come back, after that kind of crap being said, I would recommend he not do it. There is no need to answer that kind of juvenile drivel.

I had a long talk with Chris about Rule 21 when I consigned my whole collection to them. While I don't think AH's should generally bid in their own auctions I trust Heritage and that is why I went with them (and they have supported our forum from day 1). A few comments from the peanut gallery is background noise to Heritage's dominance in our field. They are dominant because they are good and people trust them, me included.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And as long as I'm being my cheerful and charming self, let me add that I really don't like this hit and run posting business, where people do a self-serving post and then announce they won't be back to engage with questions. It's OBNOXIOUS in my humble opinion. I am sure Chris is busy, but if he is too busy he shouldn't have posted in the first place. Besides, he isn't running Microsoft.

[ullmandds]

So leon...When you sold your collection through heritage...regarding “rule 21”. Id guess you were offered “guarantees” regarding “expectations” of the final results of your collection.

And in order to provide you with such guarantees...id presume the house bid up many of your cards.

Whether you truly know or don’t know...or choose to admit whether this occurred or not...the likelihood is that it did based on rule 21.

So again nothing personal and I am not looking to start any fights here but I’m not sure how your response instills any confidence Regarding this situation?

[Leon]

Your post, while it is fine, is also a bunch of made up crapola. There were 0 guarantees made and 0 reserves and 0 hidden reserves when my collection sold. So since the basis of your post is made up fantasy there is no reason to discuss it. Nothing personal you are just making up things that didn't happen to bolster your argument. Pure fantasy is what your post is.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

So leon...When you sold your collection through heritage...regarding “rule 21”. Id guess you were offered “guarantees” regarding “expectations” of the final results of your collection.

And in order to provide you with such guarantees...id presume the house bid up many of your cards.

Whether you truly know or don’t know...or choose to admit whether this occurred or not...the likelihood is that it did based on rule 21.

So again nothing personal and I am not looking to start any fights here but I’m not sure how your response instills any confidence Regarding this situation?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Your post, while it is fine, is also a bunch of made up crapola. There were 0 guarantees made and 0 reserves and 0 hidden reserves when my collection sold. So since the basis of your post is made up fantasy there is no reason to discuss it. Nothing personal you are just making up things that didn't happen to bolster your argument. Pure fantasy is what your post is.

Soooooooooo then your long discussion with Chris regarding rule number 21 was to ensure that they would NOT bid on any of your lots that appeared to be bargains...in their opinions??

[Leon]

No, the discussion was 0 reserves, low starting prices and I wanted everything to sell. Their rules are their rules. Please quit making up fantasies and fairy tales.
And I hope every member can see why arguing on a forum is silly. People like yourself spin and make stuff up. It is outrageous and I wouldn't want any friend subjected to it. And yes, I consider Chris a friend....along with almost every other advertiser .

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Soooooooooo then your long discussion with Chris regarding rule number 21 was to ensure that they would NOT bid on any of your lots that appeared to be bargains...in their opinions??

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Leon

. A few comments from the peanut gallery is background noise to Heritage's dominance in our field. They are dominant because they are good and people trust them, me included.

Heritage is dominant, so that makes everything OK. Just like PSA and PWCC are dominant in their fields.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Chris for the explanation. I love the cards that Heritage sells and I spend a good deal of money with Heritage annually. So, I ask these questions not out of antagonism or spite, but as a customer who wants to truly understand the rules. Here is Rule 21, as you quote it:

"The Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots. Auctioneer or affiliates expressly reserve the right to modify any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer or its affiliates. The Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors."

A few questions:

1. Why can the Auctioneer, its affiliates or their employees bid on the lots that they consign? What would be the reason for someone bidding on their own lot, other than to shill? Indeed, if they truly wanted to buy it, they never would have consigned it.....

2. If I consign, can I bid on my own lots, assuming that I intend to pay the full hammer and BP if I win my own lot? If not, then why can he Auctioneer, its affiliates or their employees do so?

3. Are we allowed to modify our bids prior to hammer based on info that we find out? If not, than why is Auctioneer and its affiliates allowed to?

Seems that Auctioneer (and sometimes the employees), in its/their capacity as buyers, are given certain advantages that other buyers are not afforded, no? If I am wrong here, please explain.

Again, I love Heritage and I am customer, and plan on being one for a longtime. But I think these are legitimate questions, and some of the items that give board members heartburn.

Originally Posted by Leon

As someone who gets flamed for being a little bit in the spotlight I don't blame Chris (or anyone) one bit for speaking their piece and not coming back. Darren Hughes comments above just about make me want to puke. The WOW, oh wow...kind of crap is internet mob mentality 101. If Chris wanted to come back, after that kind of crap being said, I would recommend he not do it. There is no need to answer that kind of juvenile drivel.

I had a long talk with Chris about Rule 21 when I consigned my whole collection to them. While I don't think AH's should generally bid in their own auctions I trust Heritage and that is why I went with them (and they have supported our forum from day 1). A few comments from the peanut gallery is background noise to Heritage's dominance in our field. They are dominant because they are good and people trust them, me included.

Seriously?? I think every question, like those above your post, are valid questions that need to be answered.

Unlike you, not everyone has had a long talk with Chris, hence the reasons for the questions.

Instead of flaming those that have those valid questions, why not alleviate those concerns with what you have learned personally from Chris?

Personally, I think it's a joke, like a lot of things in this hobby, that they are allowed to bid on their own auctions. Like the current card doctoring/trimming scandal, this also needs to be cleaned up for the health of the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I stand by my statement that it's not a good look to refuse to answer questions after voluntarily posting. I'm not insinuating any guilt, to be clear, just saying it's not a good look and obnoxious.

Peanut gallery noise indeed lol. I guess we should be grateful Chris chose to address us at all and leave it at that, eh?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I stand by my statement that it's not a good look to refuse to answer questions after voluntarily posting. I'm not insinuating any guilt, to be clear, just saying it's not a good look and obnoxious.

Peanut gallery noise indeed lol. I guess we should be grateful Chris chose to address us at all and leave it at that, eh?

He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say. They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on. It isn't a good look when there is an internet mob mentality either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say. They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on. It isn't a good look when there is an internet mob mentality either.

Since you seem familiar with their practices, and appear to be vouching for them, do they refuse consignments from card doctors?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say. They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on. It isn't a good look when there is an internet mob mentality either.

There's plenty to say on very important topics, he just prefers not to engage obviously. And I am surprised you would characterize your own forum as an internet mob.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There's plenty to say on very important topics, he just prefers not to engage obviously. And I am surprised you would characterize your own forum as an internet mob.

Are you new here.

[Leon]

Some of our members can 100% act like a mob and WITH NO regard for facts. Just look at the way the other Peter is spinning things? Seriously?

It is as if I said he stole something and the fact he won't answer a question makes him guilty? That is the kind of nonsense I am talking of.

And btw, I am out of this thread too unless I feel I need to come back. LOL

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There's plenty to say on very important topics, he just prefers not to engage obviously. And I am surprised you would characterize your own forum as an internet mob.

[1880nonsports]

but think OPEN DISCOURSE is paramount here. I think some excellent questions are being raised and not sure why there would be an effort to squelch or disparage any of the various voices weighing in. For the record - 100% NOT a fan of ANY auction house that would engage in these practices - regardless of THEIR reasoning as it would be contrary to mine.

[1880nonsports]

we should keep personal INSINUATIONS at a distance. They only detract from the mission...…

In any event I don't understand this: "He answered the questions and there really isn't anything else to say."

THE questions?

"They have mechanisms in place, big time, to prevent nefarious things from going on."

The MECHANISMS and defining of NEFARIOUS seem to be where the questions are.....

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Leon

As someone who gets flamed for being a little bit in the spotlight I don't blame Chris (or anyone) one bit for speaking their piece and not coming back. Darren Hughes comments above just about make me want to puke. The WOW, oh wow...kind of crap is internet mob mentality 101. If Chris wanted to come back, after that kind of crap being said, I would recommend he not do it. There is no need to answer that kind of juvenile drivel.

I had a long talk with Chris about Rule 21 when I consigned my whole collection to them. While I don't think AH's should generally bid in their own auctions I trust Heritage and that is why I went with them (and they have supported our forum from day 1). A few comments from the peanut gallery is background noise to Heritage's dominance in our field. They are dominant because they are good and people trust them, me included.

Are you freaking kidding me?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some guy comes on here to throw his crap around, basically saying that they can rip off the collectors you supposedly care about, and me responding to it makes ME the bad guy?????????????????????? What the hell fantasy world do you live in, Leon????????????? Since you personally attacked me, I'll return the favor, you feeble-minded moron. Ball up your fist, grease it up real good, and shove it straight up your f_cking a_s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Are you freaking kidding me?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some guy comes on here to throw his crap around, basically saying that they can rip off the collectors you supposedly care about, and me responding to it makes ME the bad guy?????????????????????? What the hell fantasy world do you live in, Leon????????????? Since you personally attacked me, I'll return the favor, you feeble-minded moron. Ball up your fist, grease it up real good, and shove it straight up your f_cking a_s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My point proven. Thanks for blanking out part of the f bomb so I didn't have to.

[Exhibitman]

Please welcome our new mascot:



But I digress.

Corey has it spot on: the AH foregoes the BP it would have made otherwise, so while there is no money exchanged it effectively loses the BP on the sale if an item is picked up for the house. And as anyone who has tried to profit from flipping knows, there are no guarantees. I do my best to find bargain lots I can flip. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. It isn't an exact science. HA also has to pay to store, insure and then for staff time to relist an item. They are slow as molasses to work a consignment through anyway, so those costs are real, even if they are hard to isolate.

As for the optics, I don't see the problem. I find HA to be one of the more consistent auctioneers. HA tells you exactly what to expect right up front in its rules. Whenever I bid on their site I have to tick a box acknowledging the auction terms, which are linked right there, so there is no reason to cry foul when they do what they say they are going to do and give you the chance to read their rules every time you bid. If I don't agree i can skip their auction. If enough people skip their auctions, maybe they change the rules. But the vitriol here, come on guys, we are better than that; it's just a hobby. It isn't supposed to be a cause of stress.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Using these rules, too many nefarious opportunities can exist for the auction house, such as:

Descriptions can be written to limit maximum bids, if the AH really wants to up the item
Descriptions can be written to limit maximum bids, if an employee collector really wants to up the item
Scans can be tweaked, the scanner glass not cleaned and leave a spot, or other games can be played with the item
No "purple sticker" (or type of equivalent) would be given to an item that may deserve one
Once the AH owns the item, improved descriptions can be written, or the item can be saved for, say, a "Platinum" type of auction.

This is why we don't allow employee bids. (Or "Auction house" bids)

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Corey has it spot on: the AH foregoes the BP it would have made otherwise, so while there is no money exchanged it effectively loses the BP on the sale if an item is picked up for the house. And as anyone who has tried to profit from flipping knows, there are no guarantees. I do my best to find bargain lots I can flip. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. It isn't an exact science. HA also has to pay to store, insure and then for staff time to relist an item. They are slow as molasses to work a consignment through anyway, so those costs are real, even if they are hard to isolate.

As for the optics, I don't see the problem. HA tells you exactly what to expect right up front in its rules. Whenever I bid on their site I have to tick a box acknowledging the auction terms, which are linked right there, so there is no reason to cry foul when they do what they say they are going to do. If I don't agree i can skip their auction. If enough people skip their auctions, maybe they change the rules. No sweat either way; it's just a hobby. It isn't supposed to be a cause of stress.

Perfectly said.

[Exhibitman]

Scott, I can only go from my experience with HA, but they have always allowed me to review the copy on my consignments and they have never rejected an edit I suggested. I write that review provision right into the terms of my consignment. I am sure they would veto it if I wrote something completely out of left field, but I wouldn't expect any AH except eBay to put up with that.