Is low grade unaltered the new king ?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by drcy

And cards bought from PWCC have that provenance.

That's a fair point, which makes provenance unfortunately less reliable unless purchased directly from the original owner and that person was known to you to be of such character as to not alter cards.

Where the provenance still would retain value to me as a 19th century collector pertains not so much as to the issue of alteration but to the issue of authenticity. If a rare card popped up out of nowhere and proof of its existence goes back only to a period when such a card already had a great value, I would be very nervous having confidence the card was real, at least not before undertaking some serious forensic analysis (that goes well beyond what any current TPG could provide).

[glchen]

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

This.

[Leon]

And of course I will have sold too soon as usual.

And I think the new king could also be, as Corey mentioned, provenance. Such as would be the case of cards in packs and other identifying information. If I recall when these were sent to me they were all (20) in this pack. They all measured exactly the same too. It was like buttah, I tell ya'.

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

[obcmac]

I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.

Mac

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by obcmac

I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.

Mac

Moser’s forefathers had 80 years to doctor those T206s, before Moser even got his shot in the limelight. Don’t forget that upsetting truth. If PSA can’t tell you a card was doctored a few months ago, I don’t know how much confidence there should be that they could tell you it was doctored a few epochs ago.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by obcmac

I hope this is the future...my years of buying the lowest grade cards I could find will finally pay off. I have always thought 100 year old cards should look like 100 year old cards. I also hope scarcity becomes more relevant than relative scarcity...I had the only know copy of a card...and kept getting low offers because of condition... it's one of one...why would condition matter? With all the bs going on I have never felt better collecting beaters and ignoring higher grades and autos.

Mac

Well said and agreed

[drcy]

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

Agree. The rarity of being the highest graded 1991 Donruss will no longer retain quite the same appeal

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

this has mostly been my mantra...rarity trumps condition. But of course, I've gotten suckered into the "condition matters" for some of my post-war collecting interests.

I'm hoping this is the trend, but I think, for the most part, everyone is going to take a hit due to this scandal, even the low-grade collectors. The good will get tossed in with the bad and the low-condition cards will take a hit. I do think the ridiculous spread between a graded 6 and 10 will likely narrow considerably!

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

this has mostly been my mantra...rarity trumps condition. But of course, I've gotten suckered into the "condition matters" for some of my post-war collecting interests.

I'm hoping this is the trend, but I think, for the most part, everyone is going to take a hit due to this scandal, even the low-grade collectors. The good will get tossed in with the bad and the low-condition cards will take a hit. I do think the ridiculous spread between a graded 6 and 10 will likely narrow considerably!

Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.

A substantial amount of cards I own have been tampered with...by some kid in the first few decades of the 1900's. Of course they thought, silly little boys and the occasional girl, that they were improving the original with their juvenile scribbles and scissoring.

Brian

[conor912]

You can keep your trimmed, altered and restored 10's. I'll take a real battle scarred 2 any day.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by conor912

You can keep your trimmed, altered and restored 10's. I'll take a real battle scarred 2 any day.

Real battle scarred 2 - I love it!

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Low grade cards are not exempt from the tampering, unfortunately.

good point! But I think the "game" is much more impactful to the higher end of the grading scale based on my observations of what one pays for a "6" vs. a "9" or "10".

Interestingly, if/when PSA pays out for any of these altered cards, you'll notice that PSA A's of some cards sell for prices akin to those in the PSA 5/6 range due to their perceived sharpness and superior condition compared to those with creases and punch-holes. I wonder if they'll point to those sales to figure out the amount owed (the price differential) due to their "guarantee".

Also, I wonder if PSA will just credit people's accounts for the amounts owed instead of paying in cash to limit the up-front damage. I'm regretting my decision years ago to do just that when I was given a larger amount of PSA "store credit" vs. taking the refund in cash when I had a counterfeit card that had been encapsulated by PSA and they took it back upon review. I still haven't used those funds. Yikes!

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

good point! But I think the "game" is much more impactful to the higher end of the grading scale based on my observations of what one pays for a "6" vs. a "9" or "10".

Interestingly, if/when PSA pays out for any of these altered cards, you'll notice that PSA A's of some cards sell for prices akin to those in the PSA 5/6 range due to their perceived sharpness and superior condition compared to those with creases and punch-holes. I wonder if they'll point to those sales to figure out the amount owed (the price differential) due to their "guarantee".

Also, I wonder if PSA will just credit people's accounts for the amounts owed instead of paying in cash to limit the up-front damage. I'm regretting my decision years ago to do just that when I was given a larger amount of PSA "store credit" vs. taking the refund in cash when I had a counterfeit card that had been encapsulated by PSA and they took it back upon review. I still haven't used those funds. Yikes!

I wouldn't count on PSA or PWCC paying out anything.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

True, but PSA and Beckett have both proven many times over that they are not able to correctly identify rare cards.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by glchen

The new king will be absolute rarity. It won't matter too much if a card is altered if there are only three total known.

Only if people want the card. Plenty of rare cards/issues that don't sell as
well as mainstream issues and players. That won't change.

[Copa7]

I agree with the sentiment of collecting for historical and for the shear pleasure. I'm not against making a buck, but maybe the pendulum can swing back to purists and not over priced greed.

The story of where a card has been is as important, if not greater, than its dollar value to me.

Ironically, these third party sellers and graders have marred exactly what they set out to prevent.

[drcy]

I've long known (and opined at Net54) that many high grade cards in holders are altered and that it was foolish to spend long-term big money on them.

But I've never had an interest in that area, and am like many on Net54 who appreciate some honest signs of old age to a card.

I remember I had a 1933 Goudey Gehringer that was in such bad shape that I called it "The Devil's beer coaster."