Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[vintagetoppsguy]

So, I spent some time today reading old threads, some as far back as 15 years ago. Apparently, Moser has been a doctor/scammer for decades. Why hasn't he been stopped by now? Is this time going to be any different? You'd think in all these years, he would have pissed off the wrong person and something bad would have happened to him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So, I spent some time today reading old threads, some as far back as 15 years ago. Apparently, Moser has been a doctor/scammer for decades. Why hasn't he been stopped by now? Is this time going to be any different? You'd think in all these years, he would have pissed off the wrong person and something bad would have happened to him.

I suspect there was a code of silence among the dealers and AHs who knew first hand who was doctoring cards. And what was a collector with strong suspicions supposed to do?

[perezfan]

As for the code of silence... Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

Sometimes that's the only way to stop bad behavior, agreed.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As for the code of silence... Mastro/Legendary also had lots of clout before law enforcement stepped in. Their take-down required a lot more than collectors' suspicions or complaints via online forums.

Hopefully a similar investigation can happen again (sooner rather than later). Hate to admit it, but perhaps our hobby needs a major shakedown every 5 years or so, just to keep things honest.

I would go with 5 years of major shakedowns to get the hobby clean first. Then every 5 years after that. IMHO, right now the bad sellers out number the good by a huge margin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since the early 90s when I got back into collecting, and made lots of contacts and some friends with dealers, the identify of the major card doctors has been well known. I imagine it's the same on the modern side.

[kateighty]

Haven't logged in for quite some time but have still tried to keep up with the board (too lazy to deal with recovering my password). The guilt trips of "where are the other members?" worked so I'm back. That and I'm really bothered by all of the recent nonsense. Strength in numbers!

[robkas68]

I would dispute that the card doctors are widely known. They may be known in some advanced circles, but some of the individuals named have thousands of positive feedbacks on ebay meaning that there are lots of collectors that don’t know. I can say I did not know everyone on the list. I even made 3 purchases from one on the list (not Moser) (the 3 totaled $216 all bgs and may be fine, but who knows).

However, I am not sure knowing names helps that much. Twenty years ago you could just name the 10-12 dealers you would not do business with. Today with the internet and auction houses you are dealing with literally thousands of individuals. Outside the obvious, buyer beware, deal too good to be true, etc., there are only two defenses. The intermediaries (ebay, HA, REA, PWCC, etc.) and the TPGs. Only time will tell if any of the intermediaries are directly involved or just terribly indifferent. What is clear is the intermediaries and TPGs are not very good at their jobs right now. Eventually, if you are not good at your job, people find someone better at it.

Rob Kasenter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by robkas68

I would dispute that the card doctors are widely known. They may be known in some advanced circles, but some of the individuals named have thousands of positive feedbacks on ebay meaning that there are lots of collectors that don’t know. I can say I did not know everyone on the list. I even made 3 purchases from one on the list (not Moser) (the 3 totaled $216 all bgs and may be fine, but who knows).

However, I am not sure knowing names helps that much. Twenty years ago you could just name the 10-12 dealers you would not do business with. Today with the internet and auction houses you are dealing with literally thousands of individuals. Outside the obvious, buyer beware, deal too good to be true, etc., there are only two defenses. The intermediaries (ebay, HA, REA, PWCC, etc.) and the TPGs. Only time will tell if any of the intermediaries are directly involved or just terribly indifferent. What is clear is the intermediaries and TPGs are not very good at their jobs right now. Eventually, if you are not good at your job, people find someone better at it.

Rob Kasenter

Fair enough, but the auction houses and ebay sellers who have taken their cards for years know damn well who they are, I believe. $$$$$ trumps all. There are plenty of enablers.

[Mark17]

As a small-time collector, and far from an expert, the concern this thread raises for me is, how much of this stuff has been circulating for years, or decades? If it was as simple as avoiding certain sellers, that's easy enough. But with the frequency cards are sold and traded, I would guess even the most reputable dealers in the hobby sometimes sell, unknowingly, cards that have been worked on.

Because, how could they know the difference, especially if it had been graded and slabbed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

As a small-time collector, and far from an expert, the concern this thread raises for me is, how much of this stuff has been circulating for years, or decades? If it was as simple as avoiding certain sellers, that's easy enough. But with the frequency cards are sold and traded, I would guess even the most reputable dealers in the hobby sometimes sell, unknowingly, cards that have been worked on.

Because, how could they know the difference, especially if it had been graded and slabbed?

Yep. Huge problem for both honest dealers and collectors even those who like me try to do their diligence and exercise extreme caution with some sellers.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So, I spent some time today reading old threads, some as far back as 15 years ago. Apparently, Moser has been a doctor/scammer for decades. Why hasn't he been stopped by now? Is this time going to be any different? You'd think in all these years, he would have pissed off the wrong person and something bad would have happened to him.

+1....Yep, agree.....Piece of garbage.....