PWCC planning to redefine the difference between altered and conserved in cards

[Leon]

They are probably accepting graded cards from the big TPG's. Whose fault is that? I agree that there is too much crap going on but, you know better than i do, stuff trumps all. OF course they want to make money but I also believe Brent is thinking outside of the box on a lot of stuff. His museum idea and vault ideas might take off. It is early on but there are some wealthy folks eyeing it. Personally, I would love to seem some museum quality cards that are hidden away in safes.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They are trying to make as much money as possible, by whatever means, in my opinion. I don't see any other motive here. Not that there is anything wrong with trying to make money as long as you act ethically, but let's not get starry-eyed. PS If they want to improve the hobby maybe they should stop accepting consignments from certain people. They won't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You and I both know what I am talking about in terms of accepting consignments from certain people. I'll leave it at that. Sure, the TPG flip gives them cover, but it's always been an open secret in this hobby who (at least some of) the major card doctors are. There's a new generation of them working the high ticket modern serial numbered inserts -- see Blowout's detective work on this -- but I am sure the big sellers know exactly who they are.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You and I both know what I am talking about in terms of accepting consignments from certain people. I'll leave it at that. Sure, the TPG flip gives them cover, but it's always been an open secret in this hobby who (at least some of) the major card doctors are. There's a new generation of them working the high ticket modern serial numbered inserts -- see Blowout's detective work on this -- but I am sure the big sellers know exactly who they are.

People laughed at Albert Einstein too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

People laughed at Albert Einstein too.

He would have run a relatively clean auction.

[steve B]

I think actual conservation is ok. Light surface cleaning if the card is really filthy, deacidifying for stuff like strip cards that won't make it another 90 years without it, that sort of thing.

Removing stains etc is to me where the slippery slope begins.

Pressing/trimming/rebuilding etc shouldn't be acceptable. I can see some exceptions, but they'd need a lot of transparency and disclosure. Even then, it's just way too likely it gets cracked out and regraded without disclosure.


Here's an example of what I believe is ok. This card was in a small paper bag with a stack of other cards, It stuck out, and got partway coated with soot and grime. It must have been in there for decades. I removed some of the surface grime with just a q tip and water. That sort of grime would eventually cause long term problems.

It still has a bit of grime in the tiny cracks that sometimes happen in the surface coating over time. I probably could have gotten that out too, but I think that would be going too far, and I was way too lazy to spend a few hours doing that.

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[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think actual conservation is ok. Light surface cleaning if the card is really filthy, deacidifying for stuff like strip cards that won't make it another 90 years without it, that sort of thing.

Removing stains etc is to me where the slippery slope begins.

Pressing/trimming/rebuilding etc shouldn't be acceptable. I can see some exceptions, but they'd need a lot of transparency and disclosure. Even then, it's just way too likely it gets cracked out and regraded without disclosure.


Here's an example of what I believe is ok. This card was in a small paper bag with a stack of other cards, It stuck out, and got partway coated with soot and grime. It must have been in there for decades. I removed some of the surface grime with just a q tip and water. That sort of grime would eventually cause long term problems.

It still has a bit of grime in the tiny cracks that sometimes happen in the surface coating over time. I probably could have gotten that out too, but I think that would be going too far, and I was way too lazy to spend a few hours doing that.

Before
[IMG]http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=12668[/IM

After

Did you use tap water or distilled water ?

[Exhibitman]

I've always been in favor of proper conservation including cleaning, de-acidifying, etc. These are lithographs or photographs and need to be considered as such and treated responsibly. I've lost a few old cards to acid damage--they just fell apart across creases--and it is heartbreaking to a collector. If they conserved the Sistine Chapel frescoes I think it is OK for my Goudey card. Adding stuff to a card or rebacking it or similar restoration is where the line should be drawn. Soaking and pressing is right on that line, IMO. Probably something that I want disclosed but I am realistic enough to know it won't be. The micro-trimming and slabbing is a fraud, plain and simple.

I also have to observe with regard to the orthodox position on conservation that the 'no touch' mentality comes from the PSA advertising of two decades ago when they were trying to scare people into using TPG services. "Thou shalt not clean a card" is not a Commandment, but is the end product of successful advertising to the effect that only untouched cards will get past the PSA cops and only then will they be worthy of our interest. Other hobbies that do not have TPG overlords do not act this way, Take postcard collecting . Postcard dealers routinely pencil the prices onto the card backs and collectors routinely remove them using at artgum eraser and no one except us sports card collectors slumming it at postcard shows gives a damn because a faint pencil mark on a postcard isn't the difference between high value and low value unless some TPG slaps plastic on it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Did you use tap water or distilled water ?

Tap water, but very little. Basically used a damp q-tip doing one small section at a time, and absorbing any excess with the dry end. Very similar to how conservators work on old paintings to remove years of airborne crud and "protective" varnish that's yellowed.


Not something I'd do often, It made me really nervous. There's two areas on the neck that came out cleaner than the rest. I figured I'd botched it, and was pretty much expecting an A when I sent it in. It's a 350-460 /25, and at least when I sent it in, was the highest SC 350-460 on the pop report. I'm a bit fussy about gunk, and was really surprised at the grade.

[ClementeFanOh]

I got the "relatively" in the Einstein remark, Peter!