Mariano

[nolemmings]

Greatest closer? Most certainly. Greatest pitcher? No. Tossing 15-25 pitches three times a week does not the greatest pitcher make.

Saves are the factor that puts him in his special class. Give him the same stats other than saves and he obviously misses the HOF-- how many middle relievers are in Cooperstown? Unhittable in the 6th and 7th? Great, what else you got?

I'm a Mariano fan, so I begrudge him nothing--feel free to give him all the accolades as a player and as a human being. But for him or any closer to even enter a game, others on his team must have already succeeded, and I just do not believe the 9th inning should be exalted to such heights that getting those three outs--even almost automatically--qualifies you as the greatest pitcher.

[oldjudge]

Todd-If closing is that easy why do the top closers make almost $20 million a year, while middle relievers make a lot less? Why not close by committee and save money? Team have tried it and it doesn’t work.

[GaryPassamonte]

Great specialist, great human being, not the greatest pitcher of all time.

[nolemmings]

Jay, I never said closing was easy, I just don't believe that having that skill set alone- being able to command 11% or so of a game--makes you the greatest pitcher. In theory, you can have an ERA of 18 and still save every game you close.

Only one example, and no doubt cherry-picked to support my position, but compare and contrast the 9th inning at Game 7 of the 2001 World Series. DBacks send Randy Johnson out there on zero days' rest, after he dominated the Yankees the day before and threw a complete game shutout in game 2. He retires Bernie Williams, Tino Martinez and Jorge Posada in order, whiffing Posada. Mariano? Needing just three outs to secure the title, he gives up two runs, three hits, hits a batter and commits a throwing error, retiring no one who wasn't trying to bunt. Game over, series over. Now who was the dominant, great pitcher there? And that's not some trivia tidbit about a guy who nobody's ever heard of having just one of those magical series. It's Randy Johnson, whose dominance over many years exceeds Mariano's IMHO, and I'm not advocating that even he is the greatest pitcher of all time.

Again, sorry to be contrarian, and I can think of few players, not just pitchers, who I admire more than Mariano, but greatest pitcher of all time? I'm not buyin.

[Ricky]

Think of Pedro in the 1999 All-Star Game or during the 1999-2000 seasons. That was unhittable.

Did he keep it up at that level for as long as Mariano? No, but Mariano also didn't have the wear and tear on his arm and body from pitching so many innings as a starter, either.

[prewarsports]

Better hope that one hitter you are bringing Rivera in to face with everything on the line is not Edgar Martinez

[Touch'EmAll]

Looking at his stats - most impressive indeed. However, one stat I noticed is his wins/losses. Yeah, I know W/L are debatable how important as a reliever, still he had 82 wins and 60 losses. Curious as to the general take on that stat of .577 win percentage. The W/L percentage seems to be low considering he entered games primarily either ahead or tied.