recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I'm sure can be done.....but I highly doubt as easy as picking up a pen or sharpie and a few hours practice....

try this with a twelve year old......I'm sure 5 out of 10 could prob fake an auto and get it through jsa....within a few hours....

then give the kid a t206 and have him create big bordered ghost image scrap or pull a magie error off with out detection of altering or trim up a nice 8....

aint gonna happen, only with the most advanced crooks maybe, just maybe....

simple logic.....auto are just to easy to fake...by just about anyone....sucks but true!!!


mantle and babe, I hate to say, prob 30 % or more are prob fakes(just an arbitrary number)....

to each his own definitely.....but I cant see dumping 30k or more on a cobb auto that may have a 50/50 shot at actually being legit...

make sense????

too easy to do....for so many people, cost nothing(pen ink) an a 12 year old could do it...

scary shit

I respectfully highly disagree. Don't get me wrong I 100% agree that almost anyone with practice can forge an autograph. The same thing goes with doctoring up a card.

As someone who was a mason for many years it is something that 99.99% of people can't just do without a lot of practice. Those that try have some ugly looking finished product. I can guarantee the average brick layer is not very intelligent even though they are the highest paid trade. Yet they can give you a beautiful house or fireplace because they know how.

Same with card doctoring it is not hard once you know how.

[mrvster]

i agree also, a card could be doctored also, but what to doctor???

a corner?? a wrinkle?? soak a card???

I would imagine it would be hard to create national on joe doyle......

maybe trying to doctor magie, but that is difficult im sure....

most of my scrap left are impossible to forge, especially the fat bordered grossly big bordered , weird cuts, the yellow browns ect...the whole card would have to be created and the ones I have are legit...

so I'm not too sure how , at least, t206 can be altered more??? maybe trimmed cards....but I'm sure its not even close to the scale of forged autos...

bats, balls, index cards, 8 X 10's, anything signed, to me, is questionable unless there is provenance....

obviously, card doctoring can be done, and I am sure it is, but it is not , I'm sure, as prevelant in comparison to autos....

autos are just too easy to forge....

take a magee, try to "doctor" the e into an i and try to get it into a tpa....I'm sure they would detect it....there probably not too many people on the planet could pull it off, and if they did/could, it would be beyond skill...



so I'm not sure what else could be doctored???? even the fake rare backs were caught....?????

the profit margin isn't there on trying to fake/forge other cards....how many fake magies do you think a forger is going to get through??? 1 maybe if the stars aligned and the graders were sleeping...

I'm just saying, to go to that extent to try to forge big cards or try to replicate t206 as scrap is highly unlikely....almost slim to none...

show some examples???

not many to be found....


on the other hand, the surface , I'm sure, is just scraped!! this is the tip of the iceberg I'm sure....


now tpg can't even be trusted....I can see making a mistake on 1 or 2 but dozens of these????????????

if the t206 forger didn't buy the cards on ebay, no one would have ever figured it out!

NOW THAT IS SCARY!!!!!!

how many other cards were bought at shows, the forgers just signed the item in the bathroom, then submits to james spence???

I wonder how many cobbs or mantles were cooked up while the forger sat on the toilet at a card show??? dropping # 2's and laughing his/her ass off as they submit to jsa for a multi k payoff from a 20 dollar investment?

ugh.....when it comes to autos, it's beyond scary....just use logic ....it's common sense on this one....

this has happened over many years within the hobby with autos....


I believe , the future autos with concrete evidence (photos, testimonials of witnesses, provenance) will be highly prized....


so, lesson learned....if you are getting something autoed, take a picture and a picture of the piece....document it....

I have watched every episode of pawn stars too much

[murphy8276]

Will PSA honor the guarantee on the autograph cards? I would think buying PSA wouldn't be very affected due to the protection if so.

[Republicaninmass]

Where can I adopt a 12 year old that can forge autos? I have a 2 year old that can make cuts with scissors though, or leave a card in the sun.

I get the gist of the thread, but you are deluding yourself of you truly think it isnt many times easier to "doctor" a card in any way, than it is to forge and auto past any TPG, and I'll include Spence in that group as well.


Mind you the thread billed as "too many (forgeries) to list" has what 5 or 6 cards? All from the same forger, to the same auction house or 2? Let's skip the Doyle as I believe PSA is a bit overly cautious on that one. That isn't a whole heck of a lot, more so when the t206 Holy grail Wagner, the torchbearer of the hobby, was admittedly trimmed with matching photos. The value on that psa 8, outweighs the thread of forged autos by a little, and had no affect on the hobby.

[BruceinGa]

About 15 years ago I thought it would be cool to frame pics (another hobby, framing) of TV western stars and their autographs that were on 3x5 index cards. I bought 15 or 20 pics and autographed cards from eBay, none of which had a COA. I didn't care as I wouldn't be reselling and I didn't want to pay a lot of money.
More recently I have been bidding/buying pre-war hof autographed postcards, all PSA/DNA. Again, will probably never will sell.
This will be the extent of my autograph collection.
http://net54baseball.com/attachment....1&d=1546347602

[VintageVinnie]

I've collected autographs for years, but always in person. I get them at shows or at the AAA minor league park where I live. I'm fortunate that the front office usually brings in star players to sign throughout the season, just for the cost of admission. Usually a half dozen or so. I've gotten autographs of Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice and Harmon Killebrew at the park...just to name a few. The show autographs can get pricey depending on the player, but at least I have the confidence my stuff is real when I am enjoying it in the man cave. To me, that's worth the cost. Buying an autograph I did not witness??..too risky for me in today's memorabilia market.

[mrvster]

I think that's going to be to future of collecting pieces like this....

basically either acquiring yourself, or getting photos and documentation....

paperwork(like pawn stars)

a t206 with the return envelope for example is starter...

or a photo of the person signing the item.....

an admission ticket saved from the park that day, a program accompanying the item....

some back up proof is going to be needed in the future I see to combat all these forgeries....


John Vanderbeck

they are "diluting" the good ones....

tpgs and james spence ect are really going to be "iffy" and those items will now always be questioned of their authenticity(even if it is legit)....

the only way to get authentic/real is back up with documentation, certified letters, witnesses, programs, statements, photos, ect....

more provenance= more validity=more value


sad it has come to this

[mrvster]

you are great people, and I can understand why the defense.....

but comparing apples and oranges here....

faded out / washed out T206 cards, collectors are wise to.....advanced collectors now can EASILY differentiate between a "washed" out card, or a truly missing ink scrap....

that's why TPG are rarely even grading these anymore.....THEY ACTUALLY GOT WISE....maybe they will with the autos???

that's why you see a washed out card on EBAY and someone is "claiming" it's missing ink, and it sits on ebay for years for $400 dollars....they will be lucky to get $100 or $200 and its still "iffy"

these missing ink cards are barely getting a few hundred if lucky...


the true missing ink cards are hard to detect.....

scrap is totally different- true scrap has characteristics that are nearly impossible to fake.....try creating(except a franken wagner and spending 14 k to a conservator)....you can't simply ADD big wonky borders, that's why I like my scraps way over or grossly miscut ect....truly proves the validity....


trimming cards- I'm sure that takes skill to get it past a TPG(although it happens)......not many people could trim a card up and get it into a 8 or a 9 holder.....it does probably happen when the grader is dozing off that day...


the Wagner 8 is a poor example.....that had corruption written all over it, and is a high profile type of conspiracy on that card.....bad mojo


kids, now a days, are super smart.....

go into any middle school .....give them examples of SIGNATURES.....FAMOUS AUTOS ECT......

have them practice autos.....I bet you get 2 out of 10 that are pretty talented with a ball point or a pen or a sharpie....these kids have a lot of talent artistically....i'll bet, 2 of the 10 can PROBABLY FAKE A MANTLE PRETTY GOOD....

id even bet.....get them to actually auto index cards....I bet 2 of the 10 would get through a TPG....


now, take the same group......give them high profile cards......have them trim them, and try to pass a TPG....a possibility, but the probability is highly unlikely....

now, take same group of 12 year old.....give them some T206.....have them "wash out" certain colors.....have them try to create a MAGIE out of a MAGEE.....have them try to add N'TL....have them try to create extra 100 year old cardboard, and paste them on the borders of T206, create template ghost images in the same period ink and create cards and get them past graders.....NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!


if an attempt was made, id love to see it....


better yet....my challenge- id love to see someones creation and try to get the scan by me I probably don't even need to see it in person to tell if it is legit or not......

maybe if you created one digitally, that would be the only way...


the litholgraphy is too easy to distinguish....



my point......there is always going to be beat shit in the hobby.....there are fakes of all cards I'm sure, some even probably get by......that's why we are so critical of these.... but not EVEN CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF AUTOED PIECES......the ability of BASICALLY ANYONE being able , or have the potential to fake an auto .....its been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years!


cumulatively....if the t206 forger could have faked 100 or more of these......

100X1000 each card

that's one idiot alone with a pen.......'

think of ten idiots with sharpies and pens.....


it's a scary scenario......

it would suck to have too much vested in autos if their validity is always questioned.......it's terrible how a few can really mess up a great hobby for everyone else.....




the lesson- future autoes should be accompanied with extra "proof" if you will......documentation......extra expert analysis......photos....testimonials....


MORE STUFF!

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

About 15 years ago I thought it would be cool to frame pics (another hobby, framing) of TV western stars and their autographs that were on 3x5 index cards. I bought 15 or 20 pics and autographed cards from eBay, none of which had a COA. I didn't care as I wouldn't be reselling and I didn't want to pay a lot of money.
More recently I have been bidding/buying pre-war hof autographed postcards, all PSA/DNA. Again, will probably never will sell.
This will be the extent of my autograph collection.
http://net54baseball.com/attachment....1&d=1546347602

I am partly OCD. It bothers me just to look at the frame covering the light switches. :|

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

I am partly OCD. It bothers me just to look at the frame covering the light switches. :|

Lol,me too. I temporarily hung it there for the photo. Maybe I should have cropped it.😏

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

Lol,me too. I temporarily hung it there for the photo. Maybe I should have cropped it.😏

So now you have a hole in the wall there that needs patching? There goes the OCD again.

[ruth_rookie]

What is just as scary and frustrating for me as slabbed doctored cards and forged t206’s is having genuinely un-doctored cards get regected as trimmed, altered stock, etc. I have a ‘53 topps Mantle that would easily grade an 8 that came back EVID-TRIM by PSA. Haven’t tried SGC yet but will soon. The card was busted out of a pack by my dad, then handed down to me. It was his prized possession, and I know for a fact it hasn’t been altered. Happens to a whole bunch of collectors I’m sure. So we have altered cards that are slabbed in 8 and 9 holders selling for buttloads of cash, and I may only be able to slab mine in A. How f’d up is that.....

Sorry. Rant over!

[mrvster]

Wow!!

that sucks......too bad there was no solid way to prove to them.....a trim is probably a little tough to tell on some cards....

there should be a way to "dispute the grade" and try to prove provenance....

its tough in your case, but they should have multiple graders look at a "disputed" card.....I really wanted to start a grading company a few years back due to these stories

[mrvster]

I wouldn't suggest you read this thread then

sometimes ignorance is bliss......

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I wouldn't suggest you read this thread then

sometimes ignorance is bliss......

He can read the thread. Like other “knowledgeable” autograph collectors, he KNOWS the process isn’t perfect and forged scripts can work their way into TPG holders. BTW, another horror story (Jason’s plight) of a card that has been erroneously evaluated by a TPG. Once again PROVING the point that the WHOLE TPG PROCESS is imperfect, not just autographs. Yet, through it all, the vast number of hobby collecting angles continue to thrive. Face it, this T206 autograph forgery incident, despicable as it was, will not destroy the autograph collecting community. Life goes on.....you should too....

[mrvster]

he chose not to read the thread, because he said not concerned after operation dug out......that must have cleaned out all the fraud, and the auto market recovered.....

I know the auto market won't collapse because of that post alone......goes to show, some collectors would rather ignore the problem, than be part of the solution..poster didn't even want to read the thread...didn't even want to attempt to brainstorm a solution..so they will blindly collect the autos anyway....ignorance is bliss.....just blindly accept what the opinion of the tpg is...

of course there are problems detecting trimmed cards....some probably are a little tough to detect.....

BUT JUST ADMIT IT!


then let's come up with solutions...

we are the customers and should demand better service....

like more provenance or extra graders on the piece/card...ect....

demand better service so shit like this is reduced even more ....both with autos and regular cards....

the hardcore auto collectors are definitely not going to want to hear a certain percentage of the collection is fake....I know I wouldn't want to think that if I was very heavily vested in autos....

fact is, just to easy to copy and fake autos and it was proven again on a fairly large scale....

I'm sure that was just the tip of the ice berg!! '33 goudeys 52 topps ect ect...

very sad that some don't want to be part of the solution, bury their heads in the sand, and accept such huge blunders WHICH COULD EASILY be avoided...


vintageclout, use some clout if you are a "big baller" auto guy and demand better standards....

since you are in a "big league" auto collector and I am not.....you obviously are super wise

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I really wanted to start a grading company a few years back due to these stories

You should go for it... YOLO! Hell, I’ll be your first customer and you give me a much deserved NM-MT 8.