Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

[AGuinness]

I think it would be great to hold TPGs, AHs and others involved in this accountable, BUT...

There are approximately 10,000 members on this board, not all active. That represents a small fraction of the collecting population in this country (not to mention the world). And while I've read about specific instances within this forgery scam when an AH or someone would make a customer whole after selling a forgery, what is being done in the broader hobby? I don't think I have heard of any AH or TPG addressing this in a public way, and with the authorities keeping things close to the vest (for better or for worse), how much is this scandal getting the attention of the larger collecting population?

I went to a local show shortly after this whole thread got started and the news broke. And nobody I spoke with (it was just a handful of dealers) had heard yet, and none of them were members here. Granted, this is a small show in a smaller city, but that sample size might indicate that this is flying below the radar of a vast many collectors.

I hope that EVERYONE in the hobby is aware of this, and thanks to everyone for spreading the word (including Rich and everyone at SCD with a couple stories on it). I think that with the knowledge and passion of the board members here (and most of you have forgotten more than what I'll ever know about collecting), we can put some pressure on TPGs, AHs, etc. But I think we'll need to keep spreading the word and getting people riled up about it beyond this corner of the collecting community.

[ALBB]

I have to chuckle over the statement " their not comfortable with that sig, or yes, they are comfortable with that one "

Guys spending all kinds of crazy money based of the high and mighty word of these grading company's ..and now that the heat is on...its " well, comfortable, somewhat comfortable, warm and comfortable" ...

Im sure when these company's started up way back...they never used " comfortable" in their mission statement ! ...

More like - Guarantee Promise, Authenticated , etc..

Im " comfortable " that Ive never collected autographed cards

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

If you hold yourself out as an expert, which they clearly do, you are making an implicit representation about your expertise. What good is the opinion otherwise? The evidence of all their mistakes suggests to me they are less expert than they claim.

[packs]

It would suggest the same thing about the people who bought them. They were sure they were real too and I'd think at least some of them think themselves to possess all the relevant knowledge needed to make what are mostly accurate assessments of cards put in front of them. Sometimes you get fooled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It would suggest the same thing about the people who bought them. They were sure they were real too and I'd think at least some of them think themselves to possess all the relevant knowledge needed to make what are mostly accurate assessments of cards put in front of them. Sometimes you get fooled.

I am sure some of the forgeries would have fooled anyone, but at the same time I think it's likely that many got through as a result of incompetence. I can't post the link, but read Mr. Nash's piece on JSA.

[buymycards]

I am a little concerned that someone is going to see this thread and start forging fake Santa Claus auto's.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I am a little concerned that someone is going to see this thread and start forging fake Santa Claus auto's.

If the flip said Snodgrass by mistake one of the geniuses would scoop it right up.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am sure some of the forgeries would have fooled anyone, but at the same time I think it's likely that many got through as a result of incompetence. I can't post the link, but read Mr. Nash's piece on JSA.

Is it this one, Peter?

"JSA & Jimmy Spence Expose Their Own TPA Scam Linked To Fraudulent Mathewson LOAs (UPDATE)"

Quite the read, and it really makes one wonder just how many "players" are involved in all of this??

James Spence Jr. claims on his website that he “has built a world wide reputation as the premier autograph authenticator in the world.” Spence’s claims have been bolstered by the sports auction houses and other outlets like eBay which endorse and in some cases pay for his services. These associations have deceptively bolstered his credibility in the industry. Spence’s profile was first boosted by disgraced auctioneer and convicted felon Bill Mastro who did the same when he elevated Spence’s status as the primary authenticator for Mastro Auctions and PSA/DNA between 1998 to 2002.

Spence also makes claims that his services are used by the FBI, IRS and the U. S. Postal Service, however, sources affiliated with the FBI have confirmed several times over the past few years that Spence has been the subject of on-going investigations into the third-party authentication business. In addition, Spence has lied about his lack of formal training claiming to have worked with the late autograph guru Charles Hamilton and has been implicated for stealing images of a specific collector’s items and intellectual property which he usurped for his own exemplar files. Spence also falsely claims that he has “an exemplar library which is second to none in the autograph industry.” Spence also claims to have 700,000 files of exemplars. It’s now safe to say his file on Christy Mathewson includes dozens upon dozens of forgeries from Won in the Ninth.

[Hankphenom]

I think it's great that these forgeries have been exposed, and I'm sure there will be others. I love the detective work that is going into this. And I hope it scares the TPAs into tightening their procedures and getting better at what they do. It seems to me that the recent sudden influx of signed old cards might have raised some alarms with them, although I guess it would be easy to explain as the result of the rising prices bringing more of them to market. What I don't understand, though, is the chorus of those wishing to shut down the TPAs and, presumably, go back to the wild west days of yore in the 80s and 90s, when a show of any size would feature dealers with stacks of index cards and old autograph book paper with every name in sports whose autograph collectors were willing to shell out money for, many of them appearing to have similar characteristics as if drawn by the same hand. Those of us who set up at shows back then would pass those tables, shake our heads and mutter, "what are you going to do?" and just move on, resigning ourselves to the old saw that "a fool and his money are soon parted." Smarter collectors gravitated to the dealers who seemed to know what they were doing and whose offerings didn't include the aforementioned stacks of index cards. When the TPAs started coming in, the market responded quickly and positively to the idea of having experts examine autographs for authenticity before being sold, and slowly but surely it became necessary for even the most knowledgeable dealers to get their wares certified in order to be able to sell them. As their expertise became less and less important to their own business and more and more valuable to the TPAs, the best of them followed the money and became authenticators. Even among the few dealers that remain, how many of their autographs haven't been OK'd by the big four TPAs? This evolution, really a revolution, of the hobby has it's good points and bad points from a collector's perspective, and there are many good arguments to be made as to the pros and cons thereof, but it seems to me that the arguments end when the question becomes "what does the marketplace think of the advent of TPAs into the hobby?" The answer to that question is irrefutable.
So now there is this scandal uncovering mistakes made by our watchdogs, following on other scandals in the past, and surely preceding more to come. We've all chuckled over the incidences of TPAs rejecting pieces that happened to be accompanied by their own prior LOAs, or turning down autographs that had just been signed and witnessed ten minutes earlier at the same show, or differences of opinion between the so-called experts themselves. These, and other such indicators of a lack of perfection in the process we rely upon and pay for and particularly in the infallibility of those trusted with implementing it should rightly give us pause and question whether this really is the best system for assuring that we are getting what we think we are. But having lived through the evolution of the hobby to where we are today, I would ask two questions of those who advocate scrapping this system and going back to the freewheeling times of the past: First, tell me how many bad autographs you think have been slabbed or given LOAs by the big boy TPAs compared to those that are good? Give me a percentage. And secondly, describe to me a system that does a better job of weeding out forgeries and providing confidence to the average Joe collector that he's getting what he's paying for?