Are Type I Photos The Only Safe Bet In This Hobby?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Google says you need exceptionally pure paper to make albumen or the chemicals will react horribly with any impurities and it will ruin the print. The only way for the process to work is for the paper to be modern. Old paper has all kinds of impurities built up and old photo paper still in the original box doesn't exist as far as I can see, and even if it did, I would think the chemicals would be degraded by now and it would make it unusable.

That's why it's probably extremely hard to make modern fakes look old...the paper has to be modern and that's easy to tell.

An easy way to tell for sure would be to get the paper carbon dated, IMO. The carbon dating process is now a lot more precise and a lot cheaper than before. The last time I checked it was like $500-600 for 1 sample.

I am intrigued about the carbon dating you describe. Do you know its margin of error (i.e., in years)? At the price you describe it would seem to make a lot of sense for a CdV such as this Atlantics. But how intrusive a test is it? Would it materially impact the item's potential value by requiring one to remove/destroy the tested portion?

I don't profess to have the level of photographic expertise of others on this Board. But common sense tells me that forgers are busy at work trying to replicate old photos when the potential value exceeds a certain threshold, as certainly would be the case with a CdV of arguably the most important team of the 1860's. If modern pure paper is required to make an albumen image, would it be so difficult once the image has been made and adhered to a period mount to intentionally soil it so as to make it appear old? Did the expert who examined it prior to it first appearing at auction have an opportunity to examine it out of the slab? If he did not, that would seem to me to limit the full extent of what his examination could potentially reveal. SGC did the slabbing. I have high regard for SGC as card graders. But I'm not persuaded ascertaining whether a photograph is a period albumen falls within their expertise.

Assuming the carbon dating's margin of error could establish whether the photo is period, and the testing process would not be expected to damage the image, the current owner of the photo would seem to be in an unenviable conundrum. It did not sell in the HA auction. So potential purchasers would expect the item to be carbon dated. But to do that would require the item be removed from the slab. Once that is done, there is real risk whether a grading company would agree to re-slab it unless the testing shows it to be consistent with a period albumen photograph. So it would pretty much be an all or nothing gamble -- (I) the test removes suspicions as to authenticity, the item gets re-slabbed though this time with a lot more evidence to show it is real and retains its value, or (II) the item flunks testing, is not re-slabbed and likely will be difficult to resell for anything close to what it first sold for.

[drcy]

You wouldn't want to carbon date the average CDV, due to the margin of error and that a piece has to be removed for testing. However, an advertised old paper baseball item was carbon dated at the University of Arizona to definitively prove that it was modern for a court case. Though Man Ray forgeries were discovered by another test on the paper.

If you want to learn how carbon dating and other such highly advanced processes work, I recommend the following book (I'm the author ). Spectroscopy-- a non-destructive test that identifies the chemical makeup and levels at the molecular level using a handheld device-- would potentially be very useful for baseball memorabilia, photos to cards to uniforms. Spectronomuy is used to date many things including painting. Spectroscopy is something I see in the future of baseball memorabilia and is even used to determine if aging signs (rust, foxing, etc) is authentic. The devices are expensive, but everything's free after that.

The book also goes into all the issues in authentication-- margins of error in testing, limits of science, etc.

Link

[benjulmag]

Thank you David. That is very useful information.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I am intrigued about the carbon dating you describe. Do you know its margin of error (i.e., in years)? At the price you describe it would seem to make a lot of sense for a CdV such as this Atlantics. But how intrusive a test is it? Would it materially impact the item's potential value by requiring one to remove/destroy the tested portion?

I don't profess to have the level of photographic expertise of others on this Board. But common sense tells me that forgers are busy at work trying to replicate old photos when the potential value exceeds a certain threshold, as certainly would be the case with a CdV of arguably the most important team of the 1860's. If modern pure paper is required to make an albumen image, would it be so difficult once the image has been made and adhered to a period mount to intentionally soil it so as to make it appear old? Did the expert who examined it prior to it first appearing at auction have an opportunity to examine it out of the slab? If he did not, that would seem to me to limit the full extent of what his examination could potentially reveal. SGC did the slabbing. I have high regard for SGC as card graders. But I'm not persuaded ascertaining whether a photograph is a period albumen falls within their expertise.

Assuming the carbon dating's margin of error could establish whether the photo is period, and the testing process would not be expected to damage the image, the current owner of the photo would seem to be in an unenviable conundrum. It did not sell in the HA auction. So potential purchasers would expect the item to be carbon dated. But to do that would require the item be removed from the slab. Once that is done, there is real risk whether a grading company would agree to re-slab it unless the testing shows it to be consistent with a period albumen photograph. So it would pretty much be an all or nothing gamble -- (I) the test removes suspicions as to authenticity, the item gets re-slabbed though this time with a lot more evidence to show it is real and retains its value, or (II) the item flunks testing, is not re-slabbed and likely will be difficult to resell for anything close to what it first sold for.

Corey-I don’t think the fellow who bought it in Saco River cares any more. After it didn’t sell in Heritage he told me that he was donating it to the HOF (the repository for all things that can’t be sold—LOL)

[drcy]

I had a modern platinotype and it fluoresced under blacklight.