"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[biggsdaddycool]

I agree 100%. What happened to the day when this sort of thing was frowned upon?? Maybe I’m too much of a purist, but even soaking for me is borderline.

The amount of money in the hobby these days ensures the “old days” of considering anything done to the card to improve condition being sac religious are gone.


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[LeftHandedDane]

At least it has been fully disclosed! With the skyrocketing prices for high-end cards, there is too much at stake to believe that many (most?) PSA 8 and above pre-war cards have been altered to some degree or another without full disclosure.

I agree with the OP, cards are not like fine art or real estate that are enhanced by restoration. I prefer my cards to have a little wear and tear on them, it makes them more genuine. But I collect as a hobby, not as an investment, and I am not trying to beat the market.

I can see the interest in having an authentic sample of the hobby's most iconic card, even if it has been altered, for some collectors. It will be interesting to see how much this card brings versus recent low-quality, unaltered versions.

[Throttlesteer]

I look at it more like restored cars with new parts vs a numbers matching survivor. I dont need my cards soaked, grafted, bedazzled, or recolored. The character is lost when you give them a tummy tuck.

[Jason19th]

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

[SetBuilder]

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

And you've made my point.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

The Wagner, as is any sports card, is many things to many people. I'm not sure it's helpful to portray any card as solely one thing first and all else second.

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I don't have an answer, but this makes me wonder why the sports card hobby
HAS to follow the lead of other hobbies when it comes to restoration. I'm sure there are differences, perhaps subtle or not, in how each of the other hobbies you mentioned handles restored works (not to mention differing reasons for the restorations). But there's nothing that should dictate that sports cards follows suit and plays by another hobby's book.
I think (stress: think) that it's probably a sign of the health of the hobby that there are enough people to be on various sides of the restoration debate. And I hope that there is enough respect for those who are against restoration, of which there are a large number, that all restoration work is divulged. If that can happen, I think both sides can be happy.

[ejharrington]

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

+1

[Jobu]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

[Fred]

That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.

I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale.

How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back?

I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place.

Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?

[Republicaninmass]

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

[insidethewrapper]

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

[drcy]

I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.

One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue.

I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand.

[mrvster]

going to start a thread just like this....


I agree 100% .... with poster

[Fred]

That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by bounce

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

...

Nope.

Larry

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

[orly57]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

I would buy the original, not the restored. No way.

[ClementeFanOh]

Spot on, Anson. I am into collecting comics just about as deeply as cards, and the term "restored" is frequently used to describe books that are in some way (color, staples, "married" pages, etc) artificially "improved" to enhance appearance. As is proper, these comics do not command the price values of real books of the same issue and title. For those of you who convince yourself that "restoration" is okay because it is done with cars or books, consider that those objects can be made up of hundreds of separate pieces. Cards are just front and a back. Seems pretty cheap to "restore" something like the Wagner compared to restoring a 1940s Rolls Royce, doesn't it? Those of you who can convince yourselves it is okay won't be dissuaded. I, for one, wouldn't own a "restored" card- it is cheating ( it is just that other folks KNOW you are cheating). Sermon over.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1

The hobby has matured in many ways the last 10 or so years...not all for the good...nut maturation has occurred!

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

[RedsFan1941]

the nice thing about buying a card that has a border added is you're really getting two cards for the price of one.

[oldjudge]

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

I agree with this. In this case, I would rather have the restored version. Although I appreciate anyone else's different opinion.

That's one heck of a restoration job though.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by bounce

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

I don't think there will ever be a "right" or "wrong" answer--just preferences, together with price differences between an original and restored version. IMHO, the latter will vary in proportion to the rarity, significance and popularity of the card.

Good thread,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1. Nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, and in fact I too believe future collectors will embrace it on that basis. Not that such a restored example of any rare and valuable card will bring the $$ an original would in the same condition, but I think it will eventually be commonplace for such a restoration to be accepted as significantly more valuable than the rag it originally was. After all, who wants to brag they have a Wagner, but when asked to show it, they are too embarassed by it's supreme beater condition to even show it?

Just my humble opinion,

Larry