Now that the dust has settled....observations regarding The 2018 Cleveland National

[Exhibitman]

One thing that surprises me year in and year out are the people who complain about the high prices at the show. Not directed at you specifically, Peter. Perhaps it is a side effect of eBay and all the auctions but it seems that collectors have forgotten how to negotiate. I mean, does anyone whining about prices stop to consider that these are asking prices and that offers are expected? I price my stuff well over 'market' for the show but I expect that people will haggle, bundle and seek a discount.

As far as the OP question, the place is a cornucopia of stuff but as is the case anywhere, if you are looking for a specific prewar card from an obscure set with a few examples, you probably won't find one. Nor, realistically, should you expect to find one except perhaps in an auctioneer's inventory.

The other thing is, you have to dig. Even if you don't enjoy sifting through bargain boxes, you still have to attack stacks of stuff, or you do not get a fair read on the inventory at the show. To give an example, I am always looking out for rare Exhibit cards. One of the cards on my list is the Salutations Johnny Rizzo, which is one of the toughest cards to find but since Rizzo is a nobody is occasionally overlooked. Now, on my table it would be a showcase item because I know the demand is so high for the card. I saw one example in the entire show and it was buried in one of several stacks of Exhibits at one booth. It was priced properly at $600 but it was buried in there. If I'd still needed a Rizzo to finish my set and I'd not have gone through every stack of Exhibits in the room, I'd have whined about the lack of supply of rare vintage cards.


Other impressions re baseball:

--Ruth cards have been strong at auction over the last year or two and the prices I saw appeared to reflect anticipated further gains. I think I noticed more Ruth cards than usual.
--Certain hot issues had very few cards overall at the show. Mendelsohns, I think I saw only a few. Not unexpected: why would you sell into a rising market.
--Very few Western regionals. I think having the show over and over again in the East is hurting the breadth of the show. It is simply too time consuming for West dealers to drive in and too expensive and difficult for West dealers to ship in a lot of inventory. I was pretty much limited to what I could carry on the plane from LA.

[ullmandds]

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

One thing that surprises me year in and year out are the people who complain about the high prices at the show. Not directed at you specifically, Peter. Perhaps it is a side effect of eBay and all the auctions but it seems that collectors have forgotten how to negotiate. I mean, does anyone whining about prices stop to consider that these are asking prices and that offers are expected? I price my stuff well over 'market' for the show but I expect that people will haggle, bundle and seek a discount.

As far as the OP question, the place is a cornucopia of stuff but as is the case anywhere, if you are looking for a specific prewar card from an obscure set with a few examples, you probably won't find one. Nor, realistically, should you expect to find one except perhaps in an auctioneer's inventory.

The other thing is, you have to dig. Even if you don't enjoy sifting through bargain boxes, you still have to attack stacks of stuff, or you do not get a fair read on the inventory at the show. To give an example, I am always looking out for rare Exhibit cards. One of the cards on my list is the Salutations Johnny Rizzo, which is one of the toughest cards to find but since Rizzo is a nobody is occasionally overlooked. Now, on my table it would be a showcase item because I know the demand is so high for the card. I saw one example in the entire show and it was buried in one of several stacks of Exhibits at one booth. It was priced properly at $600 but it was buried in there. If I'd still needed a Rizzo to finish my set and I'd not have gone through every stack of Exhibits in the room, I'd have whined about the lack of supply of rare vintage cards.


Other impressions re baseball:

--Ruth cards have been strong at auction over the last year or two and the prices I saw appeared to reflect anticipated further gains. I think I noticed more Ruth cards than usual.
--Certain hot issues had very few cards overall at the show. Mendelsohns, I think I saw only a few. Not unexpected: why would you sell into a rising market.
--Very few Western regionals. I think having the show over and over again in the East is hurting the breadth of the show. It is simply too time consuming for West dealers to drive in and too expensive and difficult for West dealers to ship in a lot of inventory. I was pretty much limited to what I could carry on the plane from LA.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Obviously, HE is a master negotiator and got you to negotiate against yourself!

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Thats his loss. The polite thing to do is to counter with his asking price to bring you back to his BATNA. Guy probably just doesnt know how to negotiate.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by basesareempty

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

sure, Bob...in a perfect world it'd be nice to only deal with pleasant. reasonable people.

[Bpm0014]

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.


Coming from a family of all cops, and a huge supporter of Blue Lives Matter, I'm not sure if your figures are 100% accurate. Or maybe they are. Just seems a little off to me....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.


Coming from a family of all cops, and a huge supporter of Blue Lives Matter, I'm not sure if your figures are 100% accurate. Or maybe they are. Just seems a little off to me....

His stats are crazy. All Lives Matter. That said let's get back to the topic.
So the 2018 National was great and everyone had a good time. What Rich K said above is problematic. If all of the 2019 tables are sold out before the next year even starts one would think they would work to rectify that. Mike Berkus (RIP friend) wouldn't be happy at all about the way the National is being run with respect to not satisfying dealers and therefore not making it the best it can be. I never recall this issue when Mike was the main man.
.

[david_l]

You are so off with your figures it's appalling. Utterly shocking misconception of police violence in America. I'm not sure if this is willful suspension of belief, ignorance, or something even worse. Perhaps think of using any search engine or newspaper to check these figures before stating them like you know it's a fact (and showing how grossly misinformed you are on such an important subject).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.1a5e901ef89b

This is not just some opinion.

Wow guy. Just wow.

I hate to derail but mercy...

Okay... National. Great times..

David Lu$^ig

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sure, Bob...in a perfect world it'd be nice to only deal with pleasant. reasonable people.

I guess the stuff I buy isn't super rare like some of you guys collect so I have more dealers to choose to deal with.

Bob

[polakoff]

My two shekels as a very small time, low end dealer and similarly a low end collector.

This was my second National (first was AC in 2016). At both I set up with some buddies and had essentially one 8-ft table for myself. The vast majority of what I sell is boxes ranging from 50 cents to 5 dollars, with a few cases of stuff. Almost all 50s/60s/70s, nothing later and very little earlier. I try to cater toward the OBC type crowd, set builders, etc. I make every attempt to bring short prints, variations, errors, and so on.

As you can tell, that's not a big money making endeavor. Like I said, I'm small time, low end. I mainly do small local shows, but like to go to the National and setting up is a way to cover some expenses. My buddies graciously watch my table for me while I walk the room and spend 4, 5, or 6 hours at Chandy Greenholt's table.

As a dealer, my biggest observation was that the crowds seemed lighter than 2 years ago in AC. I know I wasn't the only dealer who felt that way. In some ways this was odd as I still had the same volume of sales I had in AC (I keep meticulous sales data), but I know there were fewer people at my table overall. The other strange thing is that in AC, my strongest day was Saturday, and in Cleveland it was my weakest day. My strongest day this year was Thursday, followed by Sunday (which sort of blew my mind -- Sunday was a waste for me in AC).

As a buyer, I did love the layout. Found my way back to several tables without even writing the table numbers down. In AC even when I did write info down I couldn't navigate back to them. Food offerings were better which I appreciated as a guy who likes to eat, but I also feel like as a dealer may have hurt crowds some, because there was so much seating near the concessions (including several bars!). One thing I noticed was that there weren't a whole lot of dealers selling what I sell, which is disappointing to me as a buyer because that's what I like to buy, but encouraging as a seller because it's almost as if low end 50s-70s stuff is a niche market. Plenty of "set filler" dealers with all their sets in binders or boxes, sorted by year and number, but not as many boxes to dig through or cases with low end bargains. Case in point: #1 item for me was the lowest grade 1949 Bowman Snider I could find. I couldn't find anything low grade. #2 item was 53 Bowman Reese, same deal. I think I saw a PSA 2 Reese somewhere but I don't want a graded one. Everything else was high end graded or high end raw, nothing beat up enough to fit in my collection. Tons of ridiculous high end modern stuff, tons of ridiculous high end vintage stuff. Plenty of second-tier type stuff -- I mean in the several hundred dollar range. In fact this was where I saw what I thought were the best deals, it just wasn't stuff I wanted.

In general, I think the east/central bias is a mistake, and rumor is the committee that chooses cities wants it in Chicago permanently. I think that's a huge mistake for many reasons (money being chief among them, it's the most expensive place to stay). Even having been to only one previous National, I saw mostly the same dealers and in fact many of the same customers. Having it somewhere southeast, south central, or out west would be great.

[hcv123]

I was there with my kids Wednesday and Thursday. We were at A/C 2 years ago and Cleveland 3 years ago. At the 2 prior shows I/we were frantically hunting for rare Roberto Clemente cards from a very short want list - came up empty both times. Kids had fun - custom baseball cards and some boxes of new cards (baseball, basketball and pokemon). Both the earlier shows were big disappointments for me.
This year was different - I expected to find no new Clemente items (didn't stop us from asking though) - I decided this year was about my kids and getting them more involved (we have been collecting Pittsburgh Pirates team sets) - This year was great! The kids picked out A LOT of cards for our team sets and had a lot of fun interacting with dealers and learning the art of negotiation. Got some great Pokemon cards (at least that's what they tell me as I do not speak fluent Pokemon). We rode the ferris wheel a few times. Go figure, the year I go in expecting to find nothing Clemente - I find 2 great items!!
It seemed like there was more foot traffic than I recall seeing last 2 shows - anyone notice this?
I went in with very low expectations and just a desire to have a great time with my kids - we had a great show and experience and picked up some great stuff.
I do concur regarding the "museum pricing" on stuff - I was looking for a few graded Clemente cards to add to my registry set and while I did find probably a couple dozen that fit the bill - every single one of them was priced between 15% and 50% over current market price (that is after attempted negotiation) - None of them were that special that I could justify paying that much more. That I couldn't find one negotiable to market price was just a little bit frustrating.

[packs]

My opinion is that the dealers are the biggest offenders of "hobby disappearance". I went to the National in Atlantic City. It was the same museum collections I see all the time. Nothing was for sale at a price that reflected what was being sold. I didn't leave that show feeling like the National was anything I'd travel for unless I was after an elusive signer who was appearing.

[Jewish-collector]

I didn't go this year, but had gone more or less to pretty much the last dozen or so Nationals. To be perfectly honest, the novelty is wearing off. First of all, it is very expensive with hotel, transportation, food, etc,... even before you step onto the show floor. As a very low end collector, I really can not afford these costs. Secondly, anything I need and/or want is always available online at a better price.

My favorite part of the National has always been the Net54 dinner, which gives me the chance to meet others from this forum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

My opinion is that the dealers are the biggest offenders of "hobby disappearance". I went to the National in Atlantic City. It was the same museum collections I see all the time. Nothing was for sale at a price that reflected what was being sold. I didn't leave that show feeling like the National was anything I'd travel for unless I was after an elusive signer who was appearing.

I haven't been myself but each year I am in touch with quite a few people who go and in general that has been my impression for the last 5 years or so; at least in terms of the type of cards I have been looking for.

[mechanicalman]

I spent the better part of two days there, and I really enjoyed my time. I was able to put a face to a few names/handles, and I appreciated the ability to talk shop more than I had in the past when I knew no one.

I thought the quality of material was pretty solid (as least for what I collect.) Were prices high? Sure. They always are at the Natty. But I found some reasonable dealers. Don Hontz had some well priced cards, and James Basch had a killer case. AJ's case was stacked as well. I always love Brady and Jeff's offerings. Brady was more than fair on a couple cards, and Jeff sold me an '85 Donruss Mattingly 10 that is now the centerpiece of my '85 Donruss Mattingly collection.

I lived in Chicago for 7 years and I love that city, but the IX is better than the Stephens Convention center. The space is laid out well, and the lighting makes the cards pop. The Internet didn't affect me, but I can see how it would impact dealers. Again, a good place for a show; it's just too bad that you're in a virtual desert, devoid of any culture or places worth visiting in that immediate area.

The only complaint I have is that some dealers could not be less accommodating. I might visit a booth 4 times with no other customers and it was like pulling teeth to get attention. I don't get it. Maybe I look like a schlub, but I was there to spend. At least Levi hired some attentive folks (maybe family?). That's the first time in 10 shows someone in his booth has ever proactively addressed me.

Back to prices, I snapped a pic of one guy who was super nice, but maybe not that motivated. $18K for a 33 Ruth A anyone?

[T205 GB]

I was there Thursday till Saturday afternoon. There were some bargains to be had. You had to dig and grind for them but it was worth the patience. Picked up a nice 56 Mantle and the next morning a dealer had to have it. Got to meet up with some old friends and some new guys also. It was hard to meet up afterwards because of how spread out everyone was. Overall the show was great. The city was not impressive.

To bad there is not a Southern National in the end of May. Cities like Baton Rouge, Little Rock, Atlanta, Tallahassee, Macon, ect. I often wonder what would be found at these shows. A small hoard of tango eggs cards or Red Sun’s.

[KMayUSA6060]

This was my favorite National show-wise that I've been to. Granted, it was only my 2.5th National, and my favorite National overall was 2 years ago in A.C. when I was able to attend with my now-fiancee who had a blast, but this show was tremendous. Let me explain.

- I was able to attend 3/4 of that Thursday with my dad (I was there all day, and he left around 3 to work a different event). I learned very quickly that being accompanied by someone who is interested in sports, but doesn't necessarily collect memorabilia/cards, is a blast. My modest amount of knowledge really impressed him, and he couldn't believe the amount of history in the room, let alone the amount of money exchanging hands or the price tags he was seeing. I did explain to him that a good portion of the stuff in the room was listed at what we call "museum prices" but that the stuff is still worth a good amount.

- Being my 1.5th show in Cleveland, and fresh (pun intended, being 2 years ago) off my last National in A.C., I was very impressed with the layout in the IX Center. So much easier to navigate compared to A.C.

- I have developed a pretty good relationship with a few dealers, and it was great seeing them and catching up. Really, the best part of National is the in-person dealings and conversations. I know I'm young and wasn't around in the hay-day of "trading cards" (literally), but those deals and conversations at National are the roots of the hobby.

- Interesting selection. Being more focused this time around and with a lot of luck, I was able to knock out the majority of my targets on Day 1. This allowed more browsing and studying time, with my eyes fixating on future collection targets (T3s man... Wow will those look good on my Man Cave wall someday). I noticed a lot of the era's tier 1 names - Gehrig, Cobb, Ruth, Wagner - but was also surprised at the near lack of tier 2 names - Young, Johnson, Lajoie, Speaker, etc. I'd be curious to hear if other attendee's had similar observations in regards to the quantity of each tier. Post War was very abundant, so abundant that I'm glad I'm pretty much finished with that portion of my Hall of Fame project. I would have hated to spend time digging through the sheer volume of Post War cards for particular years/subjects.

- I learned how to spend money. Kind of an odd thing to say, right? But at previous shows - both National and smaller local show - I had hesitated to pull the trigger, sometimes on good/great deals, out of fear of losing out on something better. Not this time. I snagged my targets, and then some.

- I also learned to just enjoy the day. I went two days, and had a blast both times, for different reasons. They say the best part of collecting is the journey; this is a part of that journey. Enjoy it.

- I got the sense of enthusiasm. I don't know if I'm able to say that and have it hold much weight with how young and inexperienced I am, but I thought people were genuinely happy and excited to be there. I agree with Howard that there seemed to be a good amount of foot traffic.

I didn't necessarily enjoy A.C. the city, but didn't hate the show, so I'll be looking at the logistics of making it out there in 2 years. If not, then I'll be waiting for it to come back through Cleveland. Either way, I'm excited for my next National.

[Rhotchkiss]

I was there Wednesday and Thursday. I had a great time. Yes, things were expensive, and I passed on many cards I would have otherwise bought in a heartbeat had they been priced even close to reasonable. That said, I pulled off two huge trades, and I found a few cards I wanted for prices I was willing to pay; I opted to drop loot on an E107 Plank, which was the only card I actually bought (vs traded). All that said, I judge the good vs bad of a show a little differently then whether I bought something or the prices were fair....

I view shows as a place to make friends, plant seeds, and lay the groundwork for deals that may take a while to consummate. I think face time and relationship building with other collectors is very important. I find making connections and then doing post-show deals to be a very viable source of acquisitions. Plus these connections often help me find hard cards (and I do the same for others), down the line. PLUS, you get to look at auction house cards in person, which is huge for me since most of what I acquire i get through auction houses (not shows or Ebay). To me, a show is much more than a place to buy cards - it’s place to make connections and plant seeds that bloom later - and the big shows like Chantilly and Philly have plenty of people and stuff to make the drive and admission worthwhile. The National is Chantilly and Philly on steroids, and so so worth the trip for the networking alone.

I made a ton of connections this year, and strengthened many more that I had already made. That is just icing on the cake to a show that yielded me an E107 Plank, an E220 Ruth, and a PSA 8, Allen & Ginters Cap Anson.

Great show.

[robkas68]

I am a bit spoiled in that attending a National is seldom a burden for me. My office is literally 10 minutes from the Rosemont Convention Center when it is in Chicago and I have family about two hours from Cleveland so I schedule the summer family visit to coincide when in Cleveland. Consequently, I never have hotel or travel expense.

With respect to the show itself, I think it was rather typical. For me personally, it was a bit unusual in that I got exactly what I was looking for and literally nothing else. Most nationals I go to with my list and I don't find any of it, but I end up with a dozen other cool things I didn't ever know I needed. I went to Cleveland needing 2 cards to finish my 1938 Goudey set, 1 card to finish my 1887 Allen Ginter (baseball only) set and needing to upgrade my 1963 Topps Mantle so that all of my 1960s Mantles are at least a 7 (will upgrade my 1952 Mantle to a 7 when I win the Powerball, for now just authentic).

Went Friday and within 3 hours had:

1887 Chas Bennett
1938 Jimmie Foxx
1938 Hank Greenberg
1963 Mantle

After that, literally my biggest expense was $8 on nachos. Oh, I did go to the Indians-Angels game that evening (Trout did not play (sucks) Ohtani hit two homers (cool)-not an Angels fan, but looked forward to seeing those stars).

Rob

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I view shows as a place to make friends, plant seeds, and lay the groundwork for deals that may take a while to consummate. I think face time and relationship building with other collectors is very important. I find making connections and then doing post-show deals to be a very viable source of acquisitions.

Case in point: I visited with some collectors at my table on Wednesday and on Thursday one of them brought me two fantastic walk-in items that I acquired. I'd never even have seen them, let alone bought them, had it not been for the face time on Wednesday.

Second case in point: I missed out on a rare Brazilian card lot on eBay. The seller did not have another, so I put that on my want list for my type card collection. At the show I found out who bought the item on eBay and we made a deal for one of the duplicate cards so I now have my type card.

[Al C.risafulli]

I've missed just two Nationals since 2005 (Anaheim and the first Baltimore) - I'd go even if I didn't have LOTG to promote and consignments to beg for. It's the highlight of my summer every year, not for the stuff but for the opportunity to see everybody, shake hands, trade stories, catch up, maybe grab a beer at the bar.

The other thing I pay close attention to is how many kids are in attendance at the show, and how enthusiastic they are. I look for it specifically. As collectors, we are all ambassadors of this hobby, and to some degree, we're the guys keeping these stories alive for young people. There were more kids at the show this year than I remember in a while; we gave away about 40 packs of cards and I'm always surprised at how many young kids can identify Babe Ruth just by looking at a picture. I don't understand these crazy pack rips they have, but if it's keeping kids engaged in the hobby, I'll embrace all the yelling and screaming over the microphones at the show!

-Ao