Percentage of Net Worth

[SMPEP]

One thing I have noticed since getting back into the hobby (and especially noticed in Net54) is that baseball card collectors seem to have a lot more money than I would have predicted.

But what I haven't figured out yet is - Is that because baseball card collectors make more money than the average person in America, OR do baseball card collectors tie up a lot of their net worth in baseball cards?

So here's the poll, what percentage of your net worth do baseball cards comprise?

[KMayUSA6060]

I put 26-50%. My numbers are skewed, though, for two reasons...

1. I'm somewhat just starting out in life at 23/24 years old. Debt-to-income will improve, along with my net worth.

2. I personally am priceless, but you can't factor priceless into your net worth.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

But what I haven't figured out yet is - Is that because baseball card collectors make more money than the average person in America, OR do baseball card collectors tie up a lot of their net worth in baseball cards?

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%. The number of long time collectors I know who are getting into non-sports as a function of affordability is staggering. The (relatively modest) baseball cards that they want to collect are no longer in their budget.

That said, my guess is that the percentage of overall net worth is pretty low, because most collector's net worths are so high.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by conor912

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%.

I don't think this hobby is going to the 1% or has to. There are plenty of cards that are very affordable. Certainly, if a collector is looking for any modern set, you can certainly purchase the latest one at Target or any other store for ~$40. And for vintage sets, if you are collecting lower grade, it still is not difficult to complete the basic Topps sets (except 1952).

For prewar, there are a bunch of affordable cards also even for many HOFers. Affordability only gets to be an issue if you are a set collector, and there are some hugely expensive cards in your set (e.g., T206 or 1933 Goudey). However, if you are a type collector or team collector, there are still many inexpensive cards in prewar that you can still pick up.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by glchen

I don't think this hobby is going to the 1% or has to. There are plenty of cards that are very affordable. Certainly, if a collector is looking for any modern set, you can certainly purchase the latest one at Target or any other store for ~$40. And for vintage sets, if you are collecting lower grade, it still is not difficult to complete the basic Topps sets (except 1952).

For prewar, there are a bunch of affordable cards also even for many HOFers. Affordability only gets to be an issue if you are a set collector, and there are some hugely expensive cards in your set (e.g., T206 or 1933 Goudey). However, if you are a type collector or team collector, there are still many inexpensive cards in prewar that you can still pick up.

I knew someone would reply with this, and of course there are still plenty of affordable options. I think the point was rather that a lot cards that had been affordable for decades have increased exponentially over the last 10 years. When you fundamentally have to change what you collect because you've been priced out, you drive people away. The same could be said for homes in some areas.

[MR RAREBACK]

I would say 66 percent of my net worth is baseball cards

[Usc1]

I haven't been back in the hobby to long but have never seen it as an "investment." Most definitely less than 1% for me.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by conor912

I knew someone would reply with this, and of course there are still plenty of affordable options. I think the point was rather that a lot cards that had been affordable for decades have increased exponentially over the last 10 years. When you fundamentally have to change what you collect because you've been priced out, you drive people away. The same could be said for homes in some areas.

I'd be surprised if many had to fundamentally change what they collect over the last 10 years. My guess is that most cards could be found within a grade or two at their price from 10 years ago.

[Leon]

I agree, if you go down a grade or two (technically) a lot of the expensive cards are still affordable. That said, your resources can get out of whack when collecting. Mine did until they right-sized 3 yrs ago. My percentage was exponentially higher with my first collection. .....

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'd be surprised if many had to fundamentally change what they collect over the last 10 years. My guess is that most cards could be found within a grade or two at their price from 10 years ago.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by conor912

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%. The number of long time collectors I know who are getting into non-sports as a function of affordability is staggering. The (relatively modest) baseball cards that they want to collect are no longer in their budget.

That said, my guess is that the percentage of overall net worth is pretty low, because most collector's net worths are so high.

I don't know the hobby is totally going in the direction of the one percent; it's depends what a collector wants to focus on.

But I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

[Johnny630]

What is shocking to me is the amount of dealers/people who buy and sell in large quantities who want nothing to do with card collecting. Back in the 80’s, 90% of the sellers were guys who actually collected cards. Now I see it the other way around 10% of the dealers collect and the remaining 90% its all business about the money.

IMO This is the reason PSA/SGC/Beckett etc are such a busy/lucrative business. To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don’t collect it’s all about the bottom line.

I’d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80’s it was rare that a dealer wouldn’t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

It seems like many who buy and sell cards or are full time dealers are on this board. My question would be this
What percentage of your net worth comes from baseball card income.

It’s fun to to look back and see how this Hobby has evolved, to ponder its future.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

What is shocking to me is the amount of dealers/people who buy and sell in large quantities who want nothing to do with card collecting. Back in the 80’s, 90% of the sellers were guys who actually collected cards. Now I see it the other way around 10% of the dealers collect and the remaining 90% its all business about the money.

IMO This is the reason PSA/SGC/Beckett etc are such a busy lucrative business. To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don’t collect it’s all about the bottom line.

I’d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80’s it was rare that a dealer wouldn’t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living.

my thoughts:

The internet has commoditized a lot of things...incuding baseball cards.

The hobby was much newer back in the 70's-80's...hence less was known...enthusiasm was high...many of the early pioneers of the hobby were still around and active...sharing. These days anyone can spend a few weeks researching everything there is online about cards and can become pretty versed on the nuances of the hobby.

[2dueces]

Less than 1%. It's just cardboard.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Less than 1%. It's just cardboard.

It makes sense to me that someone who is just starting to collect would not want to invest much in collectible cards. There are plenty of examples of similar investments that bottomed out (stamps, antique furniture, tulips, etc.) I suspect that there are a lot of long time collectors who didn't spend all that much on their collections but have discovered that their long-held piles of cards, photos, autographs, and equipment have now appreciated substantially. The may have spent 1%-5% of their income on their collections over the years, but they now find that the collections are worth 10%, 20%, or 30% of their net worth. The question is whether their other investments are sufficiently large and stable so that they aren't risking their future by holding assets that depend so much on the enthusiasms/ whims of a small group of fellow collectors.

[BleedinBlue]

I voted 0% because I don’t place a $ value on my collection. If I had to give a real answer I’d say 20%.

[timn1]

I have been messing around a lot with VCP records lately, trying to develop inside info on hidden scarcities and price trends that I can use to my advantage -

and one thing that's really clear is that many sales prices on high-grade cards were much higher - like 50-80% - before 2008 than they are now. 2007-2008 was the peak, followed by a decline for the next five years or so, and then a leveling off. The last two or three years show some mild increases. All the E card sets I've looked at so far show this trend, and some others like T204. I haven't looked at T206 and they may be an exception.

I think what's happening right now is that very high-profile cards are going through the roof, but not all high-grade cards, and there are many bargains out there, at least relative to pre-recession days.

[mechanicalman]

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

And the cards are more pleasant to hold in your hand and look at.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

[Johnny630]

Until Cobb pays quarterly dividends I won’t invest in him. At these high levels Cobb is no longer high growth.
So would says the same is true with Facebook, I disagree on the that.

Although Facebook doesn’t have a dividend, yesterday was a great time to buy.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

As is identity theft.

I've been collecting to some extent for 40ish years. I still remember plenty of dealers in the 80's that had NO idea about the cards they were selling. Sure, they knew a T206 Cobb or 33' Goudey Ruth were big bucks. But, they would buy quality vintage cards for a song from collectors who were high on pack-ripping without any common sense. It was sad to see, given so many of these dealers couldn't pronounce "Lajoie" if they tried. I doubt they were collectors; they were all about making money.

[kailes2872]

I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks!

[ALR-bishop]

Less than 1 %, but it is my favorite part.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

Me too. That is one reason I soured on prewar baseball card collecting about 12-15 years ago and rarely pick up cards now. It got very frustrating to not be able to afford so much of the field.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks!

This

Spoken as an accountant not a high net worth individual...

[BLongley]

It's $5.6mm per person, $11.2mm per couple for 2018.



QUOTE=kailes2872;1798545]I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

[BLongley]

It's $5.6mm per person, $11.2mm per couple for 2018.

Originally Posted by kailes2872

I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks!

[Rich Falvo]

Edited to add...Blongley beat me to it.

The federal estate tax exclusion amount basically doubles to around $11.2 starting in 2018, right? (At least until 2025 if not extended further). I don't think I'll ever have an issue at even the lower level...

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

Sure, but T206 Cobbs are up more than 200000x since their initial public offering.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks!

Technically everything applies. Many do play with the numbers when it comes to jewelry, art, collectibles and personal belongings.

In theory it would be easy to gift all of these things and pretend you never owned them but if the IRS does an audit on your estate and there is discovery of the gifts they will go against your lifetime exemption and you might face fines for attempting to defraud the government.

I had a client pass away in 2012 with a large estate and they said the IRS got very picky on the jewelry and they had to get real appraisals for it all. If you bought a high profile collectible with traceable funds and have a taxable estate you are exposing yourself to risk but it isn't guaranteed you will be caught.

If a guy like Marshal Fogel for example who has displayed his Mantle were to try and pretend he didn't own it that would be a bad idea.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by BLongley

It's $5.6mm per person, $11.2mm per couple for 2018.

Thanks! This just made my day as I did not realize this changed!

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I’d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80’s it was rare that a dealer wouldn’t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

This part of your quote brought a smile ta me...
Cause there's one specific Gentleman on Ebay that presently does Case Breaks.
He use to be a Golf Pro at sum Resort in Florida. Now he has, What I believe ta be, a Very Good Business on the Bay.

The thing is... When he first started out, he told his wife that he Wouldn't keep "ONE" Card! I guess he told her the truth, Cause he has a whole House full of'em now & there Sumbody Else's!

[Johnny630]

Glad it brought a smile to someone face Denny :-)

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don’t collect it’s all about the bottom line.

I’d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80’s it was rare that a dealer wouldn’t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

This is true for any profession. Many people get into a business or profession because they love it. Once they're in it, doing it 40, 50, 60 hours a week, it is now just a job.

Hell, at my advanced age I love to play golf in the summer and play hockey in the winter. I also know folks who have done both professionally. When they were done, they throw their equipment over a cliff (a quote to from a former NY Ranger goalie I'd met).

I still love this hobby, and my collectibles. However, if I depended on it for my livelihood, I don't think I'd love it nearly as much.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

They only lost the value they had gained in the last 2½ months. It is not real value, but abstract value. There is no value until it is monetized.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Sure, but T206 Cobbs are up more than 200000x since their initial public offering.

I laughed audibly. 👏👏👏👏👏

[JollyElm]

There is supposed to be certainty in math, but I wonder how dealers at shows determine the percentage of their net worth tied up in cards. Do they factor 'museum' pricing into the equation? I mean, Dean's Cards' number would end up being like 8700% of his(?) net worth, right??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I don't know the hobby is totally going in the direction of the one percent; it's depends what a collector wants to focus on.

But I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

Yeah some of the historical non-sports cards are very hard to find, but when you do they often cost next to nothing.

[ashes13]

Actually the estate tax exemption is much higher now. $11.18 million per person or almost $22.4 million for a married couple so unless you and your wife have over $22.4 million of assets no federal estate taxes.

this will last until the year 2025 where it could sunset or be extended depending on congress

this from a forbes article

The tax bill, passed by the House and Senate yesterday, temporarily doubles the exemption amount for estate, gift and generation-skipping taxes from the $5 million base, set in 2011, to a new $10 million base, good for tax years 2018 through 2025. The exemption is indexed for inflation, so it looks like an individual can shelter $11.2 million in assets from these taxes. Another federal estate law provision called portability lets couples who do proper planning double that exemption. So, a couple could exclude $22.4 million for 2018. Watch out: The law’s sunset means that, absent further Congressional action, the exemption amount would revert to the $5 million base, indexed.

[bigred1]

After going through all these posts, I forgot what the question was, had to go back and check. About 5% for me

[philliesfan]

Sorry but I can't answer. There are no negative numbers to choose from..............
Robert

[drmondobueno]

My ex says I ain’t worth a damn so I guess the collection is worth...what?
Ask a mathametician or a theologian cuz I have no clue how to answer this poll.

[enuffsenuff]

I am around the 10% mark and consider myself a mid range collector with mid range spending capability. Having acquired most of the British cards I wanted I moved over to US cards about 20 years ago but only in a small way which effectively has left me thinking I should have invested more sooner but hindsight etc etc ...Thankfully my collection is extremely broad so I am happy to miss out on the odd target and condition rules in the wheelhouse

[tkd]

A lot has changed since this post started. Outed signed card fraud, trimming, altering, and the pandemic.
With all of the stuff mentioned above have you changed what percent of your net worth baseball cards comprise?
Curious to know your thoughts

[ALBB]

interesting topic

For the guys who say that worth number is ..say above 60% +, shouldn't they keep in mind, we are talking about cardboard photos of ball players

You cant go to the bank and " cash in " whenever you want

Any type of $$ you attach to a baseball card..you have your price in mind...they guy whos buying it has another..and a dealer has a lower number..and an auction house might be worse

You might say.. well I got the T205 cobb, I got the turkey red Young, I got the complete 49 Leaf set, etc, etc.. that adds up to $125,000.

Can you cash out at that number quickly ? ????

[lowpopper]

ENTIRE NET WORTH is CARDS

[hysell]

Price wise . I have picked up over half of my vintage cards by trading or picking up some cards I can deal down the road , later for my pc .

[Exhibitman]

Well, given the way things have gone, I'd say my cards as a % of net worth have increased substantially over the last two months. Some collectors might not be watching it, but some sectors of the market have gone up substantially. For example, if you have a cache of early Michael Jordan cards (pre-1990) that you haven't given much thought to in a while, you may want to take a look, because they have been on a rocket ride. Similarly, PSA 10 RCs from the 1980s-1990s have been going up fast and hard over the last two months. Check out a PSA 10 UD Griffey price or (weirdly) a PSA 9 Topps McGwire. I know some of it, like the rocket ride of the MJ RC, is probably manipulated and that FOMO plays a role (as if it doesn't on the stock market ), but the numbers are there nevertheless. Vintage is doing well, too. I've sold some stuff lately that I never thought I would because the money was too big not to.

[packs]

I probably have just as much money in my savings account as I would if I sold every card I own.

The difference of course is this: I didn't pay anywhere near the total value of my collection when I bought it. I've been collecting since the mid-90s when I was ten years old. A lot of the cards I've managed to buy over the years came at STEEP discounts compared to what it would cost me to buy them today. And I continue to make incredible returns when I sell.