Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.

Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Bill James also had a center field bias at the time. Four of his top 6 were centerfielders.

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, maybe the best all around players tend to be center fielders. Look at me, I can be, center field.

True to a point anyway.

His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James.

Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time:

1 Babe Ruth
2 Barry Bonds
3 Ty Cobb
4 Willie Mays
5 Hank Aaron
6 Honus Wagner
7 Tris Speaker
8 Stan Musial
9 Rogers Hornsby
10 Eddie Collins

Mickey Mantle is #12

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Absolutely he's at the table with the top 10 players all-time*.

Again, 7th all-time in OPS+, 6th if you only count retired guys. And he played, by far, the most valuable defensive position of the 6. And was good at it.

* - Yes, I am accounting for pitchers.