It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

My experience with them has been the opposite. The last higher end card I sent Brent I first listed here, dropped the price and would have accepted a slightly lower offer, and it ended up selling for more than my original ask. Without being shilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With that many cards on the auction block, experiences are going to vary. I don't think the fact that some guys did relatively poorly means that every strong price is shilled. At the same time, I have seen some that leave me shaking my head and some bidding patterns that looked pretty damn suspicious and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consignors running up their own.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Some thoughts without mentioning company names so I don’t get in trouble:

-the sniping service I use is authorized by eBay - about a year or so ago, I had to reregister with them as they are now an “eBay service” so I had to agree to let them place bids for me - if eBay was trying to prevent sniping, they wouldn't allow these services. I'm surprised how many savvy eBay buyers are out there - I've bid on mundane (non collectables) stuff like old gaming systems - not super old (Wii and PS3) and all the real bidding still takes place at the end

-eBay bidding history is pretty transparent, so its not hard to look at schilling on a case by case basis. Sometimes if I win a card I want, I don’t look at the history - it doesn’t do much good to see the underbidder has 0 feedback and 96% with the same seller.

-When I do look, I believe I have seen cases where the schillers were brazen enough to snipe. It doesn’t make it right to call it a “hidden reserve”. According to the rules I’m bidding under, there is no reserve, so if a card sells lower than I’m willing to pay - I’m supposed to get the benefit of that "saving" - its fraud if I'm cheated out of that.

-I suspect if the schillers do successfully win a snipe, they don't pay which I think is unique to eBay because I think for auction houses, the bid is binding. Why can't eBay do that? Why is it so easy to get out of paying? If it wasn't, it may cut down on shady behavior.

-I had a eBay seller once tell me that they can’t block “new bidders”. I can see that for small time sellers, but for the larger sellers, you would think requiring a minimum feedback would at least discourage “small time” schilling

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

Exactly. I both buy from and sell with PWCC. I set my buy price at my comfort level and forget about it. With selling, most of the cards sell for what I expect. However, you do get a few outliers both high and low. It's the nature of the auction format, the fact that these cards aren't a commodity, and a myriad of other factors.

[Neal]

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

[Marchillo]

Bid percentage isn't the best indication of foul play. I am sure I have a really high bid percentage with Greg Morris. I'll buy starter lots from the 50's and 60's and then at some point I need to start buying singles. They do so many set breaks of the years in my wheelhouse I could place 2-3 bids on 30-40 items in one night maybe win 10-15 of them. I always go this route because buying singles from multiple sources creates way too many shipping charges. Their format is perfect for what I am doing.

But then look at my bid retractions and I've never had a single one.

I buy from plenty of other sellers but when I am on a GM run I bid a lot in a short period of time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

Exactly...I have sold cards that are like at 10-20% with an hour to go. It's scary....but at least my concious is clear.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Exactly...I have sold cards that are like at 10-20% with an hour to go. It's scary....but at least my concious is clear.

Haha! Yeah, no matter how many times that happens, I still sit there biting my nails and hitting refresh.

[cardcountry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me, the best sign to avoid an auction is when it runs up to 80 or 90 percent right out of the gate. That suggests to me people are probably running up their own, or at least it seems like a good possiblity. It NEVER happens when I list cards. Usually stuff is below 50 percent with a day to go or even an hour to go. It rarely happens with certain sellers I trust and know.

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

[calvindog]

Twelve years later and people still think it's ok if an auction house shills you as long as you pay the price you wanted for the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardcountry

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

Jeff, no doubt some of the high bidding out of the gate is legit. But when I see the same patterns over and over again that I don't see with other sellers -- especially combined with the string bidding -- I just prefer to stay away and focus on auctions that behave more normally. As many PWCC auctions do, I should add. There are very few cards on ebay that can't be found again, either the next week or worst case with a little patience.

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by cardcountry

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

What auction house is aware of your max bid price?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by cardcountry

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

you may be the only one who find this funny! you and maybe jerry seinfeld who loves to overpay for things.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by cardcountry

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

OMG a hobby vet that doesn't snipe for every bid they place. LOL

What is wrong with you??? Haha

I have done this many times with great results. I take heat every time I say it but the most risky bid of all is the nuclear snipe because everyone is hip to the idea that the most serious bids generally come at the end and so consignors can more easily fit in with a final snipe bid to protect their item.

On a side note I was typing this first part up and took a call from a client and we ended up discussing an EBAY item he wanted to win and he said I might just bid right now and try and bomb them into submission before the end. Haha.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by cardcountry

Sometimes when I really want to win a card, I will bid high right at the start in hopes of discouraging others from getting in on it. Idk if it works, but I’ve done it, even with pwcc. In fact, one time I bid so high with my first bid that the auction house (not an eBay seller) called and asked if I made a mistake. Lol.

Jeff

I've done this with an AH that allows bidding to jump to specific levels. IMO there are certain price points that if you occupy that level it can discourage additional bidding. I've found that to be especially true when the bid increments change as the price goes up. I am not sure how well that works with eBay since you can't jump levels. Besides, I just get too annoyed watching the weevils bore away at my maximum price if I go all-in on eBay with an early bid. I'd rather snipe what I want to spend and take my chances. FWIW, I would never leave a scorched earth bid with PWCC, even on a snipe, due to all of the shilling allegations and activity reported on this and other boards.

Oh, and just so I won't get criticized for not condemning shilling: shilling sucks and shill bidders should be castrated with dull butter knives dipped in battery acid.

[MantleBham]

Originally Posted by Neal

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by mantlebham

do you enjoy the 4sc and pwcc office christmas parties?

:d:d:d

[Neal]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

Do you enjoy the 4SC and PWCC office Christmas parties?

never invited …. oh well

but a small percentage of my collection comes from PWCC, and probably close to half of my 80s to 90s slabs come from 4SC


I think for myself, set numbers in my head, and don't whine like a bitch about either company ….

[Peter_Spaeth]

On most "commodity" cards from the 70s and up 4SC's BIN prices are usually at the more reasonable end of the scale and often the lowest. And you can buy for 10 percent less than that usually off their website. They've been a good resource as I expanded my rookie card runs.