Question about grading hand cut cards.

Snapolit1 · #1 05-30-2018, 10:23 AM

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

Leon · #2 05-30-2018, 10:32 AM

We are talking strip cards not others.
I don't think I am seeing it quite like that. Sure, cards cut by a machine all good.

Cut by a kid 100 yrs ago is hand cut.
Cut by a kid a few hours ago is hand cut.
Who cares if they get graded with the caveat hand cut, I don't? Grading strip cards is fine with that transparency.

Defrauding someone by altering a card (trimming or otherwise) and not mentioning it, not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

Rookiemonster · #3 05-30-2018, 03:42 PM

The Cassius clay card is not even centered well. I get the the card in the top is of this card makes it difficult to cut the top correctly.

I�ve posted about 1977 Topps Walter Payton uncut sheets. This card has a bunch of uncut sheet. It is also a notoriously hard hard to find in top condition. So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

Snapolit1 · #4 05-30-2018, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

The Cassius clay card is not even centered well. I get the the card in the top is of this card makes it difficult to cut the top correctly.

I’ve posted about 1977 Topps Walter Payton uncut sheets. This card has a bunch of uncut sheet. It is also a notoriously hard hard to find in top condition. So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

Rookiemonster · #5 05-30-2018, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

It depends did they use new modern parts or original?carmaro engine or Oldsmobile? As I�m sure you know cars and cards are two vastly different things. Restored cards are not the same as original.

The card is graded a 10. Maybe they have 5 more they are waiting to grade and send in.

Touch'EmAll · #6 05-30-2018, 08:01 PM

For reasons mentioned here and in other older posts, I simply do not collect them. Let others pull their hair trying to figure it out. I agree, it just seems like too much $ for "hand cut" 8"s thru 10's - I would rather spend elsewhere. If you like them, ok, but proceed with caution.

Leon · #7 05-30-2018, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

For reasons mentioned here and in other older posts, I simply do not collect them. Let others pull their hair trying to figure it out. I agree, it just seems like too much $ for "hand cut" 8"s thru 10's - I would rather spend elsewhere. If you like them, ok, but proceed with caution.

You could consider collecting raw strip cards instead of graded? Some strips are cool....These have Decalco printed on their side. These would grade about a 1 or AUT

hand cut.
Cards are close in size, the scans are off.

steve B · #8 05-31-2018, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

That would be some trick, or a very special car.

Camaros first year was 1967.

swarmee · #9 05-31-2018, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

PSA has declared (and holds pretty true) that they won't grade it if it doesn't have a factory original cut. That's why you see so many 1979 Wayne Gretzky cards in BGS holders; they couldn't detect the cut difference between a current cut and a factory cut, so they didn't reject them.

It's also similar that you see so many 1993 SP Jeters in BGS slabs, because PSA rejects many for not being factory cut full size (2.5x3.5) and BGS does not care as much. Many of those cards were cut small by Topps, but shouldn't have been. PSA rejects them, BGS slabs them. PSA has stopped slabbing factory short 1975 Topps mini baseball for the same reason. Those factory sizes were all over the map, but PSA has a minimum size for the issue they'll accept, and all the other ones get returned ungraded.

It's their game, you play by their rules. Once you learn what their rules are, it's not too hard. But again, you don't have to play in their sandbox. There are three grading services, you can take your business to a different one, or you can ignore the grading services.

Leon · #10 05-31-2018, 07:27 AM

Case made...The sheet he was on was probably about 100-200 dollars.
I should add, this is more about buyers than grading companies. I would grade them as such too. It's more about the sales side. The whole sheet isn't even a rare sheet to obtain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-W-565-...MAAOSwWxNYqfLT
.

Exhibitman · #11 05-31-2018, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Case made...The sheet he was on was probably about 100-200 dollars.
I should add, this is more about buyers than grading companies. I would grade them as such too. It's more about the sales side. The whole sheet isn't even a rare sheet to obtain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-W-565-...MAAOSwWxNYqfLT
.

The sheets are available but cutting them out well is actually challenging. The lines between the individual cards are not straight; you can tell that the paste-up of the original art was made from a bunch of different singles pieced together by hand then screened rather from than a single sheet of images with lines drawn on. I cut down a damaged sheet to get at this card:

I had to carefully calculate how to cut and I had to sacrifice the integrity of neighboring cards to get there.

Fortunately for the baseball cards, they are 'jokers' and were placed on the bottom row of the sheet, so there is only one really hairy cut to make, at the top of the card.

As for hand cutting standards with PSA, I was not aware of them when I sent in this card:

I can probably bust it out and redo the cuts and get the grade up on eye appeal, but I don't care...

As for the overall question of grading cut out cards, it all depends on the item. When the mfg. or publisher intended that the item be cut into cards, I don't think it is right to stigmatize use of the product as intended. Here is the Pac-Man RC as it appeared in the Japanese magazine:

Seems pretty clear to me: labeled as "cards" with separate numbers and backs. Why wouldn't you cut them out? Ditto these, labeled as cards and with dotted lines:

Hector "Macho Man" Camacho's RC.

Now, this kind of thing (A18 album page), I never agreed with cutting out:

But strip cards, hell, they were meant to be cut; were kids really expected to keep an 18 inch long strip of paper?

drcy · #12 05-30-2018, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

The cut is part of a card and its manufacture. If the card was cut recently it's not entirely vintage.

I made the same argument about modern card cut from sheets on the CU board (and most agreed with me). The cutting is an integral and necessary part of the single card's manufacture/production, so if the sheet is cut recently the cards are in part recent productions. If you want to label them "Vintage cards recently cut from sheets" that is an accurate description, and collectors can treat them as they wish. If a grader holders recently sheet cut (but not disclosed as recently sheet cut) vintage cards, that is problematic and deceptive. As one particular major grader did (still does?) this, this wasn't a theoretical question.

Also-- and whether for good or ill, I'm not here to debate--, condition is an integral part of a card's value, and it's very easy to get better condition if you're cutting the card recently. At the least, the modern cutting should be (and would be) considered when valuating the grade, because, obviously, it's harder to find mint edges and corners on a 1910 cut card rather than one cut last Tuesday. I won't debate or address here whether a recently cut strip card is good or bad, but that it was cut recently should be disclosed because it influences financial value.

My longtime argument is that if a seller is omitting information because he feels it will lower the sell price, that is information that should be disclosed.

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