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#1
03-25-2018, 11:23 PM
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What’s frustrating about debating are arguments that A. Make such broad generalizations and B. Are done mainly to denigrate the opposite view. If you do want to have honest debate, a little respect helps. And please, if somebody on the other side is misinformed, HELPING them works a lot better than aggressive condescension. I have a great deal of respect for Leon allowing this discussion to take place, because while people here may come from all over the political landscape, we share a common interest. I had hoped that would foster constructive discussion, but that is not the case in many responses. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 
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#2
03-26-2018, 03:03 PM
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I have tried so many times and been ignored so many times that at this point I have concluded it's 100% willful. The opposition simply doesn't care about the facts, they are only interested in the abolition of the 2nd amendment. ETA: and for the record, I never attacked the man, but rather, his argument.
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 03-26-2018 at 03:04 PM.
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#3
03-26-2018, 03:09 PM
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__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com Last edited by Leon; 03-26-2018 at 05:32 PM. Reason: added info
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#4
03-26-2018, 04:37 PM
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Sounds to be like both sides are equally culpable.
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#5
03-26-2018, 04:41 PM
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I find it surprising that some people could think of protests as not adding up to much. Women were granted the right to vote, we passed the Civil Rights Act and desegregated our schools and public spaces because of protests. We pulled out of the Vietnam War due in large part to the pressure of public opinion as well. They are extremely powerful statements and the solidarity needed to pull them off is what brings people together for change.
Last edited by packs; 03-26-2018 at 04:41 PM.
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#6
03-26-2018, 04:56 PM
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I think that's what makes a lot of gun owners nervous. When the left isn't specific about what they want, then how is the right supposed to interpret that, other than a total gun ban? Again, if that's not what they want, then tell us what they do want. Be specific.
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#7
03-26-2018, 05:02 PM
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#8
03-26-2018, 05:09 PM
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David- that's a very fair question and you know what? I don't have an answer. You are correct that the gun control people can be vague.
But you know what I would like? To have a reasonable discussion with gun rights people like yourself- and I know you know a whole lot more about guns than I do- and not have insults thrown at me. Calling me a snowflake won't get the job done. All either side wants is for the other side to listen.
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#9
03-26-2018, 05:39 PM
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To me, it would be just about as effective as a so-called background check.
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#10
03-26-2018, 06:05 PM
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I can think of several law enforcement applications. One is simple in that if I shoot you in Texas with my gun that I bought in Illinois, local law enforcement is going to be severely handicapped in solving the crime. Even if I left the gun at the scene, they'd have no way to trace it back to me unless they knew where I purchased it, and even then the state I purchased the gun in may protect me even further. It is unlawful to have any type of database in some states. Last edited by packs; 03-26-2018 at 06:05 PM.
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#11
03-26-2018, 06:15 PM
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__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
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#12
03-26-2018, 06:20 PM
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There are 37 states where you can privately purchase a gun without any form of registration or back ground check at all. Those 37 states should, in my opinion, compel people who purchase a firearm to alert some type of regulatory agency to the fact that they've purchased a gun. Last edited by packs; 03-26-2018 at 06:36 PM.
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#13
05-18-2018, 11:34 PM
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I have guns, although not so many as I used to since I don' do much but bird hunt any more, Don't even own a handgun anymore. Just a couple of shotguns and deer rifles, I can tell you one thing I want though. I want the gun show loophole to be closed. I don't think anyone should be able to walk in to a gun show, buy a gun, and walk out with it right then without any scrutiny. That is ridiculous in my opinion So are bump stocks and banana clips. That isn't for self-defense and it isn't for hunting. That's just for killing folks. There is no other reason than to shoot faster and with more bullets. Irrespective of party or viewpoint on guns, it is a fact that our kids are getting killed in the schools they go to. As of today, 22 school shootings in 20 weeks. That is way fucked up. Kids, and parents, should be able to expect that when they leave for school, they will actually be able to come back alive. That isn't happening. Then we offer our prayers and forget about it two days later. That is simply wrong. Period. I get that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Right, But people with guns can kill other people far more quickly and far more effectively. Therein lies the problem. Just like every constitutional provision, the 2nd amendment doesn't guarantee you absolute right to own any weapon you want. For example, you don't get to own nuclear weapons or chemical weapons. Explain how your second amendment rights guarantee you that right as you are being cuffed and carted off to jail by the FBI or ATF. I don't think you can. Nor do I think you will be exonerated. Why do you need an AR? I have hunted all my life and have never owned, used, or felt I needed, an AR. Obviously I'm missing something. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the 2nd Amendment be repealed, although if you look at the historical basis for its passage, it seems pretty clear that the primary reason it was passed no longer exists . Be that as it may, I'm certainly not advocating that. I am advocating that we do stuff, like serious background checks, getting rid of the gun show loophole, and that we restrict bump stocks and huge clips. Unlike the NRA, I don't think that's unreasonable. I just want my kids to be safe.
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#14
05-19-2018, 08:41 AM
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Even the NRA wasn't always anti gun-control. In most of our lifetimes the NRA advocated FOR gun control.
In the 1930s, the NRA helped pass bills that regulated submachine guns and sawed-off shotguns, banned some gun buyers and made gun dealers register with the government. Its cooperation continued following the political and racial assassinations of the 1960s. In the 1970s, the NRA’s public image began to change after a law-breaking member was killed by an ATF agent. In 1977, it adopted a policy opposing all forms of gun control. Despite this, after the attempt on NRA member President Ronald Reagan’s life, the NRA reluctantly supported the 1994 Brady Bill, which required a waiting period and background checks for handgun purchases. The bill included a 10-year ban on assault weapons. When the ban expired in 2004, the NRA had gained enough political clout to prevent its renewal. Do a search on the worst mass shootings in US history. Take note of how many occurred after those key dates. Namely 1977 and 2004 the results might or might not shock you. The NRA being bought and paid for by big business, which is in turn buying and paying for our politicians is the problem, and frankly I don't see that as a political opinion, but maybe I'm being naive. I'll leave you with this thought, from a former president of the NRA Karl T. Frederick, a 1920 Olympic gold-medal winner for marksmanship: “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” So where does the modern NRA attitude come from??? Probably a dumb post to make for someone in business, and my intent isn't to piss off one side or please the other. Merely to call attention to the fact that games are being played and our children are apparently the expendable pawns on the board.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions
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#15
05-19-2018, 09:22 AM
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I don’t understand what the NRA has to do with any of this? Until the REAL problem is addressed, these mass shootings – at schools, at movie theaters, at malls, wherever – will continue to happen.
The REAL problem is the individuals involved – not the guns. Reasonable gun owners like myself have been saying for a long time that you don’t need to have an assault rifle to carry out these types of horrific tragedies. The kid yesterday didn’t have an assault rifle. He had a shotgun (just like Kenny has, just like I have) and a .38 revolver (the SAME gun my 89 year old grandmother has for home defense - seriously). Drunk drivers kill way more people than mass shooters. But when we hear about a drunk driver killing an entire family, we don’t blame the alcohol, we blame the driver. We don’t try and put restrictions on the alcohol, we make the DWI penalties more strict to try and prevent it. So what’s next? Ban shotguns and .38 revolvers too? Blame the NRA some more? Like I said, these things will keep happening and we’ll all send our thoughts and prayers to the victims and their families over and over and over again. Flags will be lowered to half staff for a few days and then people will forget about it until the next time. Nothing will change. The change will only come when we stop trying to blame the guns and start blaming the individuals who commit these tragedies Y’all can just keep making your same old talking points, blame the NRA, ban this or that and one day you may even get your way. But that doesn’t get rid of the 300 million guns that are already out there. People who want to commit these types of tragedies will find a way. Again, until the REAL problem is addressed, nothing will change no matter what guns laws are imposed. Deal with the ones that have mental health issues. They're the REAL problem. When the cops are called to a house 30+ times, there is a mental health issue there. When some kid posts a “Born to Kill” t-shirt on Facebook (the kid yesterday), there is a mental health issue there. These people aren’t hard to spot. They’re quite easy. The problem is nobody wants to do anything about it because we’re too afraid we'll infringe on their rights. Bull crap! Find the ones with mental health issues – no treatment facilities – just lock them up until the day the die.
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#16
03-26-2018, 06:14 PM
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death by 1000 cuts against our inalienable rights is abolition over time. "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" and anyone who says "assault weapons" in regards to the AR-15 is either ignorant to the reality of firearms, or purposely lying to garner sympathy. pick one. I do not own a single firearm, but i am a veteran and i joined to protect and defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, I believe this duty continues to this day. If you try to take away my rights, I will fight you with my entire being
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
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#17
03-26-2018, 06:42 PM
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Now that's easier said than done. Certainly strict background checks would help. Changing the age of gun ownership from 18 to 21, on the other hand, is pretty dumb and doesn't accomplish much of anything. And I've long been for a ban against owning assault weapons, but I realize that the bad guys will still own them so that won't work either. The thing that gets me the angriest is that gun owners are so sure they've got it right that they tune out anyone who even hints at making small changes. Nobody can say for sure that some changes in the laws will make us safer, but I bet a whole lot of Americans would at least be willing to try. Maybe at the end of the day nothing can be done to stop a crazed shooter from lighting up a school or church, but I hate to think we've given up trying. The survivors of Parkland HS are at the forefront of a new movement, energizing young people across the country to take a stand and to register to vote as soon as they turn 18. And what does the NRA do? Vilify them and call them a group of radicals. Now that really pisses me off.
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#18
03-26-2018, 07:09 PM
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maybe actually following through when agencies get reports of strange and dangerous behavior ? maybe securing schools and eliminating "gun free zones?" why is a courthouse and other govt buildings riddled with armed security (and our politicians) but not schools? why not deal with the problems instead of trying to take away the rights of citizens. you may not believe that this is the goal, but it's obvious to any defender of our constitution that abolition is the long term goal of those who oppose the 2nd amendment. ETA: once again you use the word "assault weapon" please define what it is, in detail ETTA: why is it surprising that I don't own guns yet defend the rights of my fellow americans? are you only interested in the bill of rights when it applies to you?
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 03-26-2018 at 07:11 PM.
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#19
03-27-2018, 06:03 PM
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Nick- I totally agree with you on the need to enforce existing laws. There is a possibility that doing so would, by itself, resolve the problem...yes, there is a chance. This is why it is important that more people registered to vote. With incumbents being so tied to Special Interest Groups and Lobbyists, it is going to take a great deal of folks interested in the common good to even get existing laws enforced, the prospect of passing more enforceable versions of those laws would be even harder. Your second point is a very important one...everyone should be alert to any strange or dangerous activities. Any follow-up on such reports, IMO, should be tempered with the fact that those folks being observed could still be completely innocent of what is 'perceived' to be dangerous and strange, in itself, is not a threat. The time has come for a new generation to select leaders and representatives who are not only sincerely interested in their needs, but are actually tied to them, body and soul. Thanks, Nick - for expressing yourself...I hope we are producing something here.
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
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#20
03-27-2018, 10:01 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...-repealed.html
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#21
03-27-2018, 10:25 AM
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David- you can always find one person to say anything. The second amendment will not be repealed.
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#22
03-27-2018, 10:30 AM
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 That is not the way the vast majority of liberals (95+%?) feel, from what I have seen. But it is the way many conservatives keep trying to provide a false narrative of the other side. They lump all opposing their view into an ALL or Nothing category and it's simply not that way. Almost all liberals, and conservatives too actually, want guns but they want gun reform. I am on that side. It's really all that can be done to try to lessen the amount of these catastrophes we have. Kudo's to the kiddo's for speaking up. That said they might give some ideas on what to do, while they are at it. I have seen very few saying exactly what would be better except for the background checks and outlawing a few weapons. .
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com Last edited by Leon; 03-27-2018 at 10:31 AM.
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#23
03-27-2018, 04:29 PM
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bolded mine Gun owners, and 2nd amendment advocates, have given and given on this issue, from 1934 to the stupid assault weapons ban of 1994 (that was dropped because they discovered it did zero to stop gun violence) and we are not giving one more inch without a fight. The problem is, if you give up one thing, then it becomes the foundation for them to move on to the next thing, and the next thing. If you don't think the agenda of the "gun control" movement is abolition then you are either delusional or in cahoots with them. (and the "you" is rhetorical not directed at you Leon personally) "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" not to mention that these people know zero about guns, what right do they have to attempt to take away the rights of law abiding citizens when they aren't even willing to take the time to understand what they are fighting against?
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits Last edited by bravos4evr; 03-27-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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#24
05-03-2018, 11:07 AM
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Sorry Leon, but you need to get out and talk to more liberals.
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#25
05-03-2018, 11:22 AM
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ps..I should add that many of my best hobby friends are very left and we get along great. I will compromise so we both win!! and from the article, even though it says the percent might have decreased... In 1999, for instance, a Hearst Newspapers poll found that 59 percent of respondents said they did not know the purpose of the Second Amendment. lastly I am a giving myself an informal infraction as there shouldn't be politics talk on the board. The gun debate shouldn't be politicized, as said many times. .
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com Last edited by Leon; 05-03-2018 at 12:55 PM.
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#26
03-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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Nothing more has to be said. Mike
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#27
03-27-2018, 10:49 AM
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Well Leon, I'm a liberal and I fully support the right of responsible Americans to own guns. I have absolutely no issue with it.
But it angers me to no end that the Parkland shooter (I can't even remember his name) can walk into a gun store and buy an AR-15 the same way I can buy a quart of milk. Why isn't there a system in place that can prevent an unhinged lunatic from so easily buying one?
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#28
03-27-2018, 11:13 AM
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Hyperbole, because he couldn't and didn't. Although there could be a more effective process.
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#29
03-27-2018, 10:53 AM
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Would it give you a nice warm, fuzzy feeling inside if it came from MSNBC? http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...ndments-repeal
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#30
03-27-2018, 02:11 PM
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/27/polit...ent/index.html
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#31
03-27-2018, 02:22 PM
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We do in fact have background checks, and have for a few years.
Without the "semantics" I can only assume the 37 states mentioned don't require then for intrastate transfers. Interstate transfers have to go through a federally licensed dealer, and that dealer has to file the proper forms and get the background check done. https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics
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