My experience with LOTG

[Al C.risafulli]

The plot thickens...

Developments over the last day or so require I make another post here, so here goes. Suffice to say I feel like the knucklehead in a bad 1970s sitcom. I know it’s a commonly-used phrase, but you can’t make this stuff up.

The lot in question, won by Frank, was a group of 11 T206 cards. This thread happened, and the person who received the cards in error told me he found ten of the 11. He kindly sent them back, because he’s a good guy, and did the right thing, and deserves a pat on the back. Frank was aware that only ten cards would be coming back. I did not know which ten, nor did I think to ask. Since Frank was only going to get ten of the 11 cards, and since in my mind I had already written off the cards as a loss, I offered Frank to keep his refund, as well as the cards. Frank showed exceptional character by refusing to take the money.

This morning I wake up and read about a Brown Old Mill. Guys, give me some credit. I feel pretty confident in saying that I’m not going to overlook a brown Old Mill and accidentally list it in a group of commons in my auction.

Back in early October, I received a submission of 76 T206s back from PSA, all from the same consignor. I grouped them together in lots, and passed them along to the part-time employee who was helping scan the cards for the auction. When I was proofing his work, I noticed that two cards were mislabeled by PSA as Brown Old Mill. One - the Paige - had already been scanned as part of what became lot 262 - the lot that started this thread. The second card - a Bill Bernhard that I was going to list on its own - had come back a PSA 4.5. Given that Brown Old Mills should not have numerical grades since they’re all hand-cut, something was clearly wrong - not to mention that neither back looked brown to me.

I contacted PSA about the two cards, and they asked me to send them back to be reholdered. I sent them back, PSA reholdered them and shipped them back to me immediately at their expense. Here’s a screen shot from the PSA submission of that reholdering/relabeling job, showing both cards and their cert numbers.



Meanwhile, the original lot of 11 cards - the one this thread is about, with the scan of the Paige card with the incorrect Brown Old Mill flip, was listed in the auction. The scan of the 11 cards SHOULD have been replaced with a new scan including the Paige in the correct holder. They weren’t. OR, the or the entire lot should have been listed as a group of 10 without the Paige. It wasn’t. That’s where I screwed up (the first time).

INSTEAD, the two cards that were reholdered by PSA wound up erroneously being re-scanned together, and listed as a separate lot in the auction - lot 234. That lot contains the Paige AND the Bernhard, in the correct holders. If you look at the Paige card in lot 262 and the one in lot 234, they are clearly the same card - same pinhole at the top, same cert number on the flip, but one has the wrong description on the label.

So now, I’ve got the same card listed in the auction twice, and I don’t realize it. It is a common card, graded 1, very unnoticeable. Except that Frank, and probably some other folks as well, think there’s a chance that there’s a Brown Old Mill hiding in a lot of relatively common T206s, and rolling the dice might wind up with a nice score.

And, of course, when Frank doesn’t get his lot, hilarity ensues, as it would only be natural for Frank to think that somebody was playing games on this end with his Brown Old Mill.

It wasn’t until this morning, when I read posts in this thread about the Brown Old Mill, that I realized that this problem went even deeper than I had realized. I contacted the guy who'd received the ten cards to make SURE he couldn't have possibly still had the 11th card, and he insisted there was no way. In searching to figure out if it was possible that I still had the Paige here, I searched “Paige” in my most recent auction - and there it was, in lot 234.

SO, I contacted the winner of lot 234, the two Old Mills, in hopes that I could buy that card back from him and send it along to Frank with the other ten.

The winner of that lot (lot 234) is a Net54 member, extremely well-respected in the hobby, one of the nicest guys you’ll ever meet, and anyone who’s been on this board for any length of time knows him. I’m going to leave his name out of this thread. He’s working on a collection of Old Mill Southern Leaguers and I believe he’s building the set raw. So he went to break the card out of the new, ironclad PSA holder, and he damaged the card.

It looks like this now.



So that’s why Frank is not getting the Paige. Because it has a giant hole in it, as I discovered today. The guy who got the 10 cards by accident was being honest - he only got 10 cards, and he shipped them back quickly because he is a nice guy who lives one state away.

This afternoon I shipped the ten cards, along with a check for $100 to cover the cost of the Paige, to Frank, via Priority Mail. He should have them Saturday.

A promise: As long as Love of the Game Auctions is a business, I will occasionally make a mistake, and when I do, I will own it and do everything I can to fix it. Less occasionally, but still occasionally, I will make more than one mistake with the same lot. However, a far more important promise (I think): you will never, ever, see me engaging in any kind of sinister, unethical behavior. I understand that the natural response is to assume - especially given some of the history in this hobby - that the worst possible thing is happening. However, I started LOTG IN RESPONSE to that element of the hobby. There are no shenanigans going on with this company. Period.

Had I found that I made a mistake and listed a brown Old Mill in a lot of commons in my auction, I would have withdrawn the lot, explained why, and listed the brown Old Mill as its own lot in my next auction. I would NOT lie about it, be devious about it in any way, because that is not how I do things. For those of you who would like to think otherwise, I get it, but it’s just not that exciting. If you’re looking to find an auction house lying and cheating its customers, look elsewhere.

Once again, to Frank, I apologize for all the ridiculousness surrounding this lot. I’m not going to answer questions like “Why did he ask to have his items before the holidays?” or “Why did the mail deliver one thing really fast and another thing really slow?” because they’re unanswerable questions.

I hope this clears everything up.

-Al

[brianp-beme]

Ok, guess my theory was only slightly correct. Let's all go back to the realization that Al is not the antichrist.

Brian

[nolemmings]

So that's all you got, Al? You're gonna stick with that?

[timn1]

Al WAS the Antichrist but now he isn't anymore.

[h2oya311]

I feel like I'm living in a Seinfeld episode. Great stuff!

[Kawika]

I owe Al an apology.

[botport]

Al did tell me all this today and I am glad that he came out to explain it so quickly and thoroughly because he did a much better job than I could have possibly done.

I have been doing a considerable amount of thinking since this thread was started and I would like to do something to try and get something positive out of this entire ordeal.

My idea is to auction off 9/10 cards for charity here in the BST auction section.
(I'd like to keep the Evers for myself)

I would need three things to make this happen..

1) A charity that we can reach a decent consensus to give the proceeds to.
2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.
3) Net54 members opinions on 1/2 and also should this be a new thread or continue here?


So, I understand this is a major shift of gears from where we have been the last few days, but I think this could surely produce positivity as a result of this thread.


Frank

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by botport

2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.

how about Al?

[Stonepony]

I would 100% match the total sale if the charity is autism speaks. I do not want to serve as the middleman however. Anyway, good luck

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by botport

Al did tell me all this today and I am glad that he came out to explain it so quickly and thoroughly because he did a much better job than I could have possibly done.

I have been doing a considerable amount of thinking since this thread was started and I would like to do something to try and get something positive out of this entire ordeal.

My idea is to auction off 9/10 cards for charity here in the BST auction section.
(I'd like to keep the Evers for myself)

I would need three things to make this happen..

1) A charity that we can reach a decent consensus to give the proceeds to.
2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.
3) Net54 members opinions on 1/2 and also should this be a new thread or continue here?


So, I understand this is a major shift of gears from where we have been the last few days, but I think this could surely produce positivity as a result of this thread.


Frank

I would suggest maybe the American Cancer Society, as it seems from many of the sadder posts on the board over the years, cancer has claimed too many collectors or their family members.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[frankbmd]

"I don't crack slabs often, but when I do, I'm drinking Dos Equis."

The Most Interesting Man on the Forum.

[ccre]

After all that drama filled reading, I'm ready for a beer!

Originally Posted by frankbmd

"I don't crack slabs often, but when I do, I'm drinking Dos Equis."

The Most Interesting Man on the Forum.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by botport

Al did tell me all this today and I am glad that he came out to explain it so quickly and thoroughly because he did a much better job than I could have possibly done.

I have been doing a considerable amount of thinking since this thread was started and I would like to do something to try and get something positive out of this entire ordeal.

My idea is to auction off 9/10 cards for charity here in the BST auction section.
(I'd like to keep the Evers for myself)

I would need three things to make this happen..

1) A charity that we can reach a decent consensus to give the proceeds to.
2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.
3) Net54 members opinions on 1/2 and also should this be a new thread or continue here?


So, I understand this is a major shift of gears from where we have been the last few days, but I think this could surely produce positivity as a result of this thread.


Frank

I think you should find a charity in CHARLESTON to donate the funds to since that is who PAIGE played for.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by botport

Al did tell me all this today and I am glad that he came out to explain it so quickly and thoroughly because he did a much better job than I could have possibly done.

I have been doing a considerable amount of thinking since this thread was started and I would like to do something to try and get something positive out of this entire ordeal.

My idea is to auction off 9/10 cards for charity here in the BST auction section.
(I'd like to keep the Evers for myself)

I would need three things to make this happen..

1) A charity that we can reach a decent consensus to give the proceeds to.
2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.
3) Net54 members opinions on 1/2 and also should this be a new thread or continue here?


So, I understand this is a major shift of gears from where we have been the last few days, but I think this could surely produce positivity as a result of this thread.


Frank

Awesome idea, I would suggest St Judes Children's Hospital as a worthy charity.

[smotan_02]

First, I wanted to tip my hat to both the OP and the AH. Both were professional and empathetic about what happened and I personally learned some great conflict resolution tactics throughout this thread.

Next, perhaps I could offer a different type of charity. I'm a leadership fellow for Veterans in Media and Entertainment. We work to help train, prepare, and network for military veterans to get jobs throughout the media and entertainment industry as a way to change the image of military veterans from the inside (ie- we aren't all a broken post traumatic mess).

Also, who knows this thread could make a heck of a video one day....as well as many, many, MANY other threads on this forum.

https://www.crowdrise.com/vmeconnect

Thanks for the consideration, I would gladly serve as the middle man or you can even donate directly to the crowdrise website above. Please let me know if you have any questions.

[TCMA]

In terms of a charity to donate to I've got a direct connection at the Taylor Hooton Foundation and could safely and easily get the funds to them. I'm part of a project utilizing players from their MLB Advisory Board. More info at the links below:

http://taylorhooton.org/
http://allmeleague.com/all-stars/

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by botport

Al did tell me all this today and I am glad that he came out to explain it so quickly and thoroughly because he did a much better job than I could have possibly done.

I have been doing a considerable amount of thinking since this thread was started and I would like to do something to try and get something positive out of this entire ordeal.

My idea is to auction off 9/10 cards for charity here in the BST auction section.
(I'd like to keep the Evers for myself)

I would need three things to make this happen..

1) A charity that we can reach a decent consensus to give the proceeds to.
2) A middleman that is well respected that can deliver the money to the charity.
3) Net54 members opinions on 1/2 and also should this be a new thread or continue here?


So, I understand this is a major shift of gears from where we have been the last few days, but I think this could surely produce positivity as a result of this thread.


Frank

This is a great idea and kind gesture. May I suggest a Crohns and Colitis Foundation for research?

[Stonepony]

You cannot make that shit up!!!! I hope everyone has calmed down, I'm laughing my ass off.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

As a guy who worked in live theatre for 20 years before getting into the auction business I can avow that Truth is indeed stranger than fiction. At various points in this narrative I have been close to jumping in with accusations and wild uninformed opinions. Basically this story is too convoluted NOT to believe (plus you can check out many of the details in the auction listing) I've never dealt with Al or Frank so I have no skin in the game, no favorite, or buddy I'm protecting, in fact it'd probably behoove me to shit all over Al and LOTG, but I actually believe at this point that the parties to the story (including the two ancillary parties) have all been honest and reasonable.

I said it earlier, we all hate to make mistakes and we really hate when mistakes are made at our expense, but how we deal with those is what shows our character.

I'll leave this thread with a little story. There's an auction house by me that conducts local auctions via internet. Not a card auction, estates, general, closeouts etc... My wife had been looking for a large desk for her office. They had one at an estate closeout that I won for a ridiculously low price. The auction listing read "Desk and contents." I went to pick up the desk and was taking it apart to get it in my van. A lady came in and asked me what I was doing. Apparently she had won an auction for just the contents of the desk. Yep the auction house had listed it twice. The lady in question stormed off to get an employee while I continued to take pieces of the desk to my van (leaving the disputed drawers) The employee came running out to my car and said she discovered their mistake and did I care very much about the contents. I told her "no" and she graciously offered me a 50% refund. I took it as I was "wronged" but it made me very appreciative of their efforts to correct what could've been an ugly situation.

Shit happens. Al screwed up, more than once. If I can read between the lines correctly, he feels like hell about it. Frank got screwed, he was pissed, he got mostly unscrewed and wants to be done with this. He should take the $100 and his cards and evaluate whether or not he thinks it was sufficient recompense for the hassles and if he'll do business with LOTG going forward, but he does seem to accept the story.

If anyone has a conspiracy theory which differs from the narrative offered I'd love to hear it, but it better be pretty damn compelling. As someone who works in the auction world and as a card dealer I am in the middle of granting someone a refund. It happens. I'll go on record as wagering that LOTG doesn't have anything like this go down again for a LOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGG time.


EDIT: Post was written right after Al's explanation. Kudos to Frank for his gesture. I know animal shelters are a big topic on the site from time to time, love my rescued dog, just my 2¢.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

...

I'll leave this thread with a little story. There's an auction house by me that conducts local auctions via internet. Not a card auction, estates, general, closeouts etc... My wife had been looking for a large desk for her office. They had one at an estate closeout that I won for a ridiculously low price. The auction listing read "Desk and contents." I went to pick up the desk and was taking it apart to get it in my van. A lady came in and asked me what I was doing. Apparently she had won an auction for just the contents of the desk. Yep the auction house had listed it twice. The lady in question stormed off to get an employee while I continued to take pieces of the desk to my van (leaving the disputed drawers) The employee came running out to my car and said she discovered their mistake and did I care very much about the contents. I told her "no" and she graciously offered me a 50% refund. I took it as I was "wronged" but it made me very appreciative of their efforts to correct what could've been an ugly situation.

...

Was there a Brown Old Mill Paige in one of those drawers? I think it might belong to me

[Bpm0014]

So he went to break the card out of the new, ironclad PSA holder, and he damaged the card. It looks like this now.

How does this even happen? I've broken out close to 170 cards and have not even come close to doing this once. It's really a shame because that is a beautiful card! When I get back from Texas this weekend, for softball, I'll post a step by step tutorial on how to crack open a slab. With pictures....

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

So he went to break the card out of the new, ironclad PSA holder, and he damaged the card. It looks like this now.

How does this even happen? I've broken out close to 170 cards and have not even come close to doing this once. It's really a shame because that is a beautiful card! When I get back from Texas this weekend, for softball, I'll post a step by step tutorial on how to crack open a slab. With pictures....

I asked the same question. I am only speculating that the now owner of the Paige might have had some pressure applied and the shell just split wide open causing the flat head screwdriver to tear into the card.

Don't forget to keep the tutorial simple. Lots of pictures and few words. Just don't want some people confused and then they damage their cards and come after you for restitution because of their simpleness.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When the OP said mentioned later on that he was getting the cards he purchased and was also generously offered money as well with the cards (this was offered AFTER he received the 11 card lot..i mean 10 card lot) , it wasnt as simple as that. One card was missing from the lot he purchased so it wouldnt be generous to offer him some money plus the cards he purchased in which he was shorted one card.

I questioned the timing of the extra money being offered AFTER the cards were found.

I questioned the extra money given plus the cards and it turns out I was right because he was shorted a card and some money was needed just to make the guy whole. At the time of my questioning nobody knew he was being shorted a card but now you see why i raised the issue.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

So he went to break the card out of the new, ironclad PSA holder, and he damaged the card. It looks like this now.

I knew when PSA redesigned their slab that it would lead to havoc in the hobby. If they had just kept the slab that could be easily cracked with a butter knife, this whole thread could have been avoided.

[Jacklitsch]

That's too funny.

[bigfish]

Where the hell have you been. Please offer your common sense opinion. I would guess youre right and hope all is well with you.

[Shoeless Moe]

I work for the Human Fund and we would love the donation, please make it out to CASH.