Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

[steve B]

How about this?

It's Christmas, whether you celebrate it or not, kick back with your favorite beverage and have a wonderful evening!

After the holiday, lets get some high res scans of a bunch of both 150/350 and 350/460 cards and see if we can come up with two sets of identifiable positions or not. That may allow us to separate the 150's from 350's. Then we can compare to the elite 11 cards and see which group they match. That would also prove/disprove there being a clear division between series. I thought there was, but now I'm unsure. It's most likely 150/carryover or leftovers/350.

The Sovereign 350s may be a bit of a key, I'm currently thinking that the change wasn't a marker, just a change in the recepie for the ink. Probably leaving out some black to save money. But I'm open to changing that opinion.
I'm fairly certain the sheet size and layout may have varied between not only series but brand.

Have a great holiday, and lets get after this come the new year.

[Pat R]

With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.

Thanks, Pat....thank you.

For reminding me that I did a similar study some years ago (including a few more 150/350 guys). But, when you check out the Pop Report data of these subjects,
you will see that their pop number's vary from 20-40 cards each with PIEDMONT 350 backs. Therefore, I considered that their situation did not compare with the
Elite 11 subjects.
Furthermore let me add that perhaps the Elite 11 were not consecutively positioned as I have shown in Post #1. But, they were printed on the same sheet as the
initial Joe Doyle print run.

In the late 1950's when I was in High School, I worked in a print shop. I tell you this, because I recall when the printer made a minor mistake, they simply threw
away the entire sheet.
Then corrected their mistake and started cranking-out new sheets. I think this is what occurred here.


I maintain, that the coincidences of the Elite 11 cards with the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card (approx. the same pop report data; and, the Georgia connection) are just
too great to ignore.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted,

I waited to reply again hoping that someone like Scot who's opinion
you do respect would post. There are still many mystery's surrounding
the printing and sheets but with what we do know I think it's obvious that Joe Doyle was not on the same sheet as the "elite eleven"

You even have him on one of your 350/460 sheets in post #4 of your
Reference/Reflections thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816

[Bpm0014]

Anyone??


The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Anyone??


The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....

Brendan, show us a scan. It sounds really interesting. I don't have one, and I would like to find one, but I don't know if they would bring that much of a premium.