Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

[tedzan]

Hey Luke

I replied to Pat's comment in Post #4.

For starters....I will first ask you the same as I asked him......
" Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ? "

Do you have any proof that ALC did not ? ? Show it to me !

Because we certainly do know ALC in their 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) there is a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards. Which confirms to
us that in certain new series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates, and also added new plates.


2nd....You're assuming that ALC started their 350 press runs of 150 series cards using the same sheets that ALC used when they printed the 150 press runs.
Well, let's see your proof of this ?

3rd....Look here, you don't have to tell me anything about the Elite 11 that I don't already know. Ten years ago on this forum, I presented my theory regarding the Elite 11 (when no
one here was aware of the scarcity of these T206 subjects with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

But, now you write up in your blog just about everything I have for years presented on this forum....and, you don't even possess the common decency to acknowledge my research ! !

4th.... And, quit the crap of trying to lecture me regarding the career status of 10 (of the 11) guys. The following is an excerpt of what I posted on Net54 some time ago......

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Elite 11 subjects are originally 150 Series subjects. When ALC started printing the 350-series cards they included 150 series subjects in the mix. The following info
may also explain why the Elite 11 subjects were short-printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Dahlen (Boston)....joined Brooklyn, Oct 27, 1909

Ewing..................traded to Phillies, Jan 20, 1910

Ganley.................ML career ended, Sept 27, 1909

Tom Jones............traded to Detroit, Aug 20, 1909

Karger.................traded to Boston AL. Jul 26, 1909

Lindaman.............released from Boston NL, Jul 26, 1909

Lundgren..............ML career ended, Apr 23, 1909

Schaefer...............traded to Washington, Aug 13, 1909

Al Shaw................ML career ends 1909

Spencer................played only 28 games with Boston AL in 1909

Mullin................... ? ? (long and very successful Pitcher with Detroit)


And, then there is......a single Schulte (front) with PIEDMONT 350 back. I do not consider this subject as part of the Elite 11 group, until I see an EPDG back on this card.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Luke

I replied to Pat's comment in Post #4.

For starters....I will first ask you the same as I asked him......
" Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ? "

Do you have any proof that ALC did not ? ? Show it to me !

Because we certainly do know ALC in their 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) there is a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards. Which confirms to
us that in certain new series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates, and also added new plates.


2nd....You're assuming that ALC started their 350 press runs of 150 series cards using the same sheets that ALC used when they printed the 150 press runs.
Well, let's see your proof of this ?

3rd....Look here, you don't have to tell me anything about the Elite 11 that I don't already know. Ten years ago on this forum, I presented my theory regarding the Elite 11 (when no
one here was aware of the scarcity of these T206 subjects with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

But, now you write up in your blog just about everything I have for years presented on this forum....and, you don't even possess the common decency to acknowledge my research ! !

4th.... And, quit the crap of trying to lecture me regarding the career status of 10 (of the 11) guys. The following is an excerpt of what I posted on Net54 some time ago......





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

No Ted I guess we can't prove with absolute certainty that ALC didn't print
350 only subjects on sheets with 150/350 subjects but from what we do
know about the printing it's unlikely that they did.

A few reasons why it's unlikely that Doyle was printed on a sheet with the
elite eleven.....

For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject.
Doyle Sov 350.jpg

There are no miscut front cards with a 150/350 subject and a 350 only or 350/460 subject.

Of the 40+ confirmed two name cards both names are all either 150/350 or 350 only or in a couple of examples 350 only/super print.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=142480&page=5

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

No Ted I guess we can't prove with absolute certainty that ALC didn't print
350 only subjects on sheets with 150/350 subjects but from what we do
know about the printing it's unlikely that they did.

A few reasons why it's unlikely that Doyle was printed on a sheet with the
elite eleven.....

For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject.
Attachment 299902

There are no miscut front cards with a 150/350 subject and a 350 only or 350/460 subject.

Of the 40+ confirmed two name cards both names are all either 150/350 or 350 only or in a couple of examples 350 only/super print.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=142480&page=5

Pat

This statement by T206resource is very misleading......

"For starters Doyle isn't a true 350 only subject. He was printed with an
Apple green Sovereign 350 back so he was printed later in the 350 series
which makes him a print group 3 subject."


These 66 subjects were initially printed as 350-only cards when American Litho (ALC) started printing the 350 series cards. Subsequently, ALC chose these 66 subjects
for the 350/460 series. During the SOVEREIGN 350 print runs, ALC identified these 66 guys with "apple green" backs. As we know, Joe Doyle's career ended before the
350/460 print runs (circa late 1910 > early 1911). Therefore, this subject is indeed a 350-only card. Which I believe was printed very early in the 350-series press runs.
I base this on these 2 factors......
Richard Russell's Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card must have been acquired early in 1910 (or late 1909). As, 96 % of the subjects in the 350-series part of his collection have
PIEDMONT 350 backs.
And, mostly this one....The corrected Joe Doyle card with an EPDG back is very rare.



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









Furthermore, I will repeat....the T215-1 (RED CROSS) series....which was printed in the same timeline (circa 1910) as these T206's....comprises of a mixture of 150/350,
350-only, and 350/460 cards in their 1st series. Which absolutely confirms that in certain series, ALC re-arranged their printing plates from other print runs (and perhaps
also added new plates).

Your "plate scratch" project is an excellent analysis, and I commend you for your work. However as I see it, so far it only applies to PIEDMONT 150 sheets.
Regarding print runs of subsequent series and the various other T206 brands, I think different things occurred (that remain to be analyzed).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I don't know why you think I said ALC didn't re-arrange the sheets
as a matter of fact I've posted several times that I think the layouts
and sheet sizes were changed through out the printing process but
I don't believe that 150/350 subjects were on the same sheet as
350 only or 350/460 subjects or that Doyle was printed very early
in the 350 printing.

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.

Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.

Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.

Pat
Check out the Standard Catalogue, all 96 cards in the T215 set are listed. My research iidicates that possibly two 48-card print runs were done. The 1st series in 1910 and the 2nd series of 48 cards in 1911 > 1912.
The Matty (white cap) was most likely included in the 1st series (with 350-only cards). It's interesting to see how up-to-date these cards are regarding trades. For example....Huggins (hands at mouth) is Cincinnati.
And, Huggins (portrait) is St. Louis.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.

All 96 subjects in the T215-1 and T215-2 set are accounted for. Also, there are 2 cards of Byrne (Pittsburg and St Louis). Furthermore, a complete "PIRATE" set was discovered some years ago [97 cards (with Byrne's variations)].
The "PIRATE" set mirrors the T215 set.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?

Absolutely, the "forest green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs were printed before the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

And, as I've stated before, ALC selected 66 subjects to be extended into the 350/460 series. Three of these 66 guys were not printed with 460-type backs since their careers ended in the Major Leagues (Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls,
Bob Rhoades). Why ALC printed the backs of these 66 subjects with a lighter ciolored Green ink is not really known.
My guess is that ALC simply wanted to distinguish them from the sheets with the regular 350-only cards.

Footnote.... Joe Doyle was a promising pitcher when he joined the Highlanders. And, ALC (being based in New York City) naturally favored the New York BB teams. And, I think ALC wanted to print more cards of him.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

How about this?

It's Christmas, whether you celebrate it or not, kick back with your favorite beverage and have a wonderful evening!

After the holiday, lets get some high res scans of a bunch of both 150/350 and 350/460 cards and see if we can come up with two sets of identifiable positions or not. That may allow us to separate the 150's from 350's. Then we can compare to the elite 11 cards and see which group they match. That would also prove/disprove there being a clear division between series. I thought there was, but now I'm unsure. It's most likely 150/carryover or leftovers/350.

The Sovereign 350s may be a bit of a key, I'm currently thinking that the change wasn't a marker, just a change in the recepie for the ink. Probably leaving out some black to save money. But I'm open to changing that opinion.
I'm fairly certain the sheet size and layout may have varied between not only series but brand.

Have a great holiday, and lets get after this come the new year.

[Pat R]

With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.