PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is no deception in art restoration. There is a world of deception in baseball card restoration/alteration, because rarely is any of it disclosed, and the whole point is to make a card look better and grade higher while deceiving the grading companies and potential buyers into thinking it's original.

As I said, if the restoration in this case is no big deal, then the consignor should have no objection to its disclosure. But something tells me the consignor would have been furious if PWCC had posted a picture of the SGC 50 in the auction and explained the work done by Towle or whoever did it.

Can't have it both ways. If it's acceptable and even a good thing as some seem to be saying, you should have no objection to disclosure.

All fair points

[ullmandds]

i highly doubt this card was "just" soaked!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i highly doubt this card was "just" soaked!

Maybe a little bleach, a little of this, a lot of that.......


Look at that REA version of the card. If those lighter spots are the original color of the card, then that's not "toning". That's a stain!

I'd guess it was soaked out of a scrapbook. The "toning" is glue residue that seeped into the paper, and the lighter marks are one of three things.

#1. Old tape that covered that area, and then deteriorated

#2. Something similar to stamp mounts

#3. The evidence of whatever tool was used to hold the card in place when it was taking it's chemical bath

[Snapolit1]

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, and he said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. When your grading evaluation means the difference between a 5k card and a 35k card, you owe the card community that diligence if you proclaim to be the the best in the business. Like JC said,this was obviously submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[Leon]

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

Originally Posted by orly57

Leon, I disagree that it isn't psa' fault. First of all, the card is off centered and is at best a 6(st). Second, on a low pop card like this, a cursory search of past sales would have easily revealed the alteration. Heck, our own hawk-eyed member caught it and he isn't a professional grader. Like JC said,this was submitted by a preferred client and they over-graded without any research whatsoever.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

++

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

[Sean1125]

,

Brent Huigens
8:34 AM (19 minutes ago)

to me
I'm aware of the Net54 thread.

Ultimately small small restoration issues like this (scrapbook removal, wax removal, etc) is a gray area in the hobby but ultimately it's up to PSA and their quality control standards to determine what's acceptable and what is not. Card is a very good 7...looks graded right to me.

Brent
-Sent from mobile

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

This is the same response you will get 100 percent of the time.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

,

Reads a bit differently now in light of the recent bombshell doesn't it?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

+1. Hard to debate that point, plus, IMO, restoration is coming (but I do believe it should be transparent if we're talking about building up corners and restoring paper loss).

Best wishes,

Larry

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

The same discoloration marks on the front are still visible on both....even the cleaned up card.

Also, same centering and same print/toning dots on back of card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Interesting debate. When I go to sell my house I'm hoping to brush over a couple of 100 flaws/issues. I won't actively deceive anyone, or make any affirmative claims that are false, but I'm going to do everything I can to make the house present well and detract attention away from its shortcomings. Might slap some paint on the side of the house that turns to hell after a few months for some odd reason. May scrub the garage door that always attracts some green mold crud. Does that make me a bad guy?

Did anyone ever answer how we know this is the same card?

this other...just poured my first cup!!!!

[Leon]

You said among other(s) after that? Have 1 more cup, I am.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

this other...just poured my first cup!!!!

[spaidly]

Vintage car restoration is acceptable (and disclosed) but collectors pay way way more for untouched, original paint, low mileage jewels that are "condition rarities". The value goes way down if a car(d) is sold as original and then you find out it was reconditioned. That, my friends, is fraud. I would have loved to own that DiMaggio if I could afford it but now it is a lie in a holder.
Scott

[ullmandds]

its pretty obvious its the same card...just look at the before and after for christ sake?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

its pretty obvious its the same card...just look at the before and after for christ sake?

Who said it wasn't the same card? I agree, it's pretty obvious.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by spaidly

Vintage car restoration is acceptable (and disclosed) but collectors pay way way more for untouched, original paint, low mileage jewels that are "condition rarities". The value goes way down if a car(d) is sold as original and then you find out it was reconditioned. That, my friends, is fraud. I would have loved to own that DiMaggio if I could afford it but now it is a lie in a holder.
Scott

What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff?

I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.

so true!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have always found morals depend greatly on if you are the seller or the buyer. If you are the buyer it is unacceptable but if you are the seller it is OK.

Well, it's back on the market just a few months after being sold by Goldin. I wonder if the winning bidder of that auction had buyers remorse so soon after getting it in hand (or somebody alerted him of the restoration job), and decided he'd be better off without it.

[spaidly]

I knew I was setting myself up for that! Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

What if all it needed was a little wet sand and buff?