Checklist of 1869-70 Cincinnati Red Stockings images

[bgar3]

As I have gotten older, my collecting interests have gotten older also. While doing recent research I realized I had prepared a preliminary checklist of images of the 1869-70 Red Stockings, that might be of interest.
There are several contemporary images, evidencing their importance and popularity. (Some are even affordable). I fully expect there will be additions, and corrections, and I look forward to that. I will attempt to post images of mentioned items, but I have not mastered that yet so they may be in several posts. Sorry.
1. Probably the most famous is a team photo in uniform by Huff of Newark NJ. No doubt taken between June 16 and 18, probably the 18th before their game with Irvington, which is very close to Newark. This photo served many purposes:
a. Woodcut in Harper's July 3, 1869. I list this first since it was the original,purpose of the photo according to Rhodes and Eradi in their excellent First Boys of Summer.
b. Woodcut of the heads from this photo used as a full page illustration in the July 17, 1869 Leslie's.
c. Peck and Snyder trade cards of various sizes and backing, (there is a separate thread with analysis of this )
d. I have also seen a circular composite that appears to be made up of the heads from this also.
2. Large cabinet team photo by Brady taken in Washington DC on June 25, 1869, according to Ellard. See it reproduced on page 167in Ellard, Base Ball in Cincinnati.
3. A cabinet composite photo of players in suits by Hoag of Cincinnati, probably on July 1,1869 when the team was in Cincinnati for a banquet and presentation of a giant bat. See Ellard p. 173. This was used again,
a. With head shots reversed as woodcuts on the 1869 sheet music
b. And for the October 2,1869 New York Clipper woodcut.
4. A woodcut of the presentation of the giant bat in Harper's, July 24,1869. No photo has ever surfaced.
5. I have seen in catalogues and am aware some board members have a cdv composite by D R Towne of Rockford Ill. Of the players in suits surrounding Harry Wright in uniform seated on a chair. I do not know when this was taken, but likely
dates are around July2, 4 or 5,11 or October 15, 1870 when they played Forest City of Rockfrord Ill. Although there were 1869 games, these were very close to to the Hoag photo, and I believe there are 1870 cdv's by Towne of the Forest City team. I thought it was also possible that the suit photos are Hoag photos again repurposed and reversed, but I have been told by someone with the Towne cdv that this is not the case. In any case, the image of Harry Wright in uniform in the center is only the second individual photo I have seen of Harry in uniform, only the third of any player. I believe there will be a Sabr pictorial committee newsletter with the other 2 photos, soon.
6. There is a photo of the Cincinnati and Forest City (Cleveland) teams before a May, 31, 1870 game, but I do not know the details.
7. Finally, there is another Harper's woodcut of the Red Stockings batting against the Atlantics which appeared on July2, 1870.

At least two other images are now known to have been incorrectly identified as the 1869 team -- one entitled "opening day", showing players walking on a field and two, a woodcut from Days Doings from July, 1869 which was described as the first image of the 1869 team in action. However, the same illustration appeared in Leslie's on November 3, 1866 illustrating a different game.

I would love to hear of other images, comments and corrections.

[bgar3]

As predicted, only one photo showed up, it is the Hoag. If interested I could try the others again. Sorry.

[YankeeFan]

Thanks for sharing the results of your research.
I am interested in seeing more images.

[bgar3]

Harper's woodcut on top, 1869 sheet music bottom. Both based upon Huff photo.

[bgar3]

Peck and Snyder, also Huff.

[bgar3]

Brady photo from Ellard book.

[bgar3]

Harper's woodcut.

[bgar3]

Harper's giant bat woodcut.

[bgar3]

Harper's game versus Atlantics.

[bgar3]

Leslie's team based upon Huff.

[aquarius31]

Great research and images! For the woodcuts, I'm not aware of any others depicting the 1869 Red Stockings although new discoveries come up every once in a while (likely from more obscure publications). As you point out, the Days Doings print is the same as the November 1866 Leslie's issue which instead shows the Atlantics vs Athletics. There are some later Red Stockings images but not from 1869-1870.

[bgar3]

Thank you, good to know about the woodcuts from an expert.

[Baseball Rarities]

Bruce - thanks for posting this thread. Here are some of your images right side up.

[Baseball Rarities]

This is always been my favorite 1869 Reds image - a composite with images by Hoag of Cincinnati.

[bgar3]

Thank you for helping with the photos. Also a big thank you for showing the great Hoag image in all its splendor. I had only seen it in the Ellard book. Are they the same, the mount looks like it might be different and yours seems larger? A really great piece!

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Are they the same, the mount looks like it might be different and yours seems larger? A really great piece!

The mount on this display piece measures about 15" x 24". The central photo of Wright is about 6-1/4" tall and the surrounding portraits are 3-1/4".

The images are the same as the Hoag composite that is in Ellard's book, except that there are only 9 images used instead of 10. The composite in Ellard's book has two images of Wright, one identifying him as a Center Fielder and the other as their Captain. Obviously, they are in a different order also.

Here are the two images to compare.

[bgar3]

Great info, thanks.

[Baseball Rarities]

Not a big deal, but it looks like Charlie Gould's image was reversed in the Ellard book as well.

[GaryPassamonte]

Kevin- The Gould image looks to be different entirely.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Kevin- The Gould image looks to be different entirely.

I think that you are right. It was hard for to tell with the image reversed.

Do you think that the small and large images of Harry Wright in the Ellard book are the same?

[GaryPassamonte]

That one is a little tougher to tell, but I think they are slightly different.

[WillowGrove]

Bruce - thanks for this research! So I have a question about the Huff photo. I had no idea of the date the photo was taken but you seem to be certain and it makes sense it was while they were in Irvington (just an 18 minute bike ride away from Newark today according to google).

But do you have any thoughts as to why? Did they set a record of any kind by that date? ( I don't think so). Were they highly touted by then so it was a no brainer that a photographer would ask or be asked to capture their image?

And why this particular photographer in New Jersey to take the important team photo instead of a photographer in Cincinnati back in April/May before they left town?

Sorry if any of these answers have been covered- I own a reprint of the Ellard book as well as 'The First Boys of Summer' but haven't gotten into them yet.

Thanks again for the research!

peter

[bgar3]

Hi Peter, I sent you a email before I saw this post, but the short answer is it appears Huff was the photographer Harper's wanted to use for their woodcut. I suspect it the timing was based upon their being in the New York area and having success against those established teams, while drawing decent crowds. The original purpose of the photo was the woodcut, any other uses were secondary. I found First Boys of Summer to be fascinating.

[bgar3]

Peter, an update on your question of why the interest by Harper's which ultimately resulted in the famous Peck and Snyder photo card: I found further evidence to support the speculation that it was because they were in the New York area and having success against those established teams. Henry Chadwick, in an obscure publication called Walden's monthly from 1894, noted that it was the 4 to 2 close win over the Mutuels on June 16 th that "proved to be the turning point in their career of 1869 and it was the basis of their financial success during the remainder of season." ( I believe the team portrait was done a few days later before or after the Irvington game as noted above.). Chadwick emphasized that " the score of the game was the talk of the whole fraternity at the time."
Not conclusive, but enough for me to believe that this game n particular, was the deciding factor to interest Harper's.

[WillowGrove]

And there we have it.

Bruce, thank you for the follow up. The fact that you found this nugget is really amazing.

So I'm not a Cincinnati guy but I own a Peck & Snyder and certainly enjoy research - I'm also interested in figuring out when the sporting good store began using the image on their trade card. I don't know if this has been discussed.

I know P&S also had trade cards with other teams - and that the years may drift into 1870 and 1871. I apologize, I don't have my ducks in a row for this post. But it would be interesting to find the earliest date of that print ad where one could order the card(s) in quantities.

But that is just for the one use of the image you initially posted about. May i ask, are there any other outstanding questions that YOU have Bruce about the images?

Thank you again for the follow up!

peter

[bgar3]

Peter, glad you found it interesting also. I think one question I have is not about the team images, but whether or not there are individual images of the Cincinnati players in uniform? I know of two, but there has to be more.

[WillowGrove]

I came across this recently Bruce...


http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...155/lot.1.html

[bgar3]

Thanks Peter, those were great. Very special pieces.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Thanks Peter, those were great. Very special pieces.

Does that answer your question? Is that what you wondering Bruce? Hope so.

[bgar3]

Sorry Peter, but no. They are the Boston Red Stockings, not the 1869-70 Cincinnati Red Stockings. I actually once owned the Harry and George Wright from that group, but unsigned.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by bgar3

Sorry Peter, but no. They are the Boston Red Stockings, not the 1869-70 Cincinnati Red Stockings. I actually once owned the Harry and George Wright from that group, but unsigned.

Ahahahaha. I got confused seeing Harry Wright. And also by not looking closely at the title. And by overall missing that important fact.

And your search for the 1869-70 Red Stockings continue.

Side note - you once owned Harry and George Wright from that group? That is very cool.