Clayton Kershaw

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

In one thread you argue that Ichiro was more or less an average player and now in this thread you're arguing that Jim Kaat is one of the all time best pitchers.

I will use your own methods against you to demonstrate why it doesn't make sense to view baseball players the way you do. You said Ichiro was only 5 percent better than an average player based on RC+. Well, Jim Kaat's ERA+ is only 108, that makes him just 8 percent better than a league average pitcher.

I don't think much of ERA+ or any other proprietary BR stat (and it would be dishonest for me or anyone else to use a fangraphs stat for one player and compare it to a baseball reference stat for another) Kaat's FIP is 28th in the live ball era of all pitchers with at least 3000 innings pitched. Ahead of Spahn, Tiant, Feller, Robin Roberts, Jim Palmer, Niekro and Catfish Hunter.

PLUS, if folks want to throw voting and awards into the mix, Kaat has 16 GG's.

I never said I didn't think Ichiro was a HOF'er either, nor did i say he was an avg PLAYER, he IS a slightly above avg HITTER for his career though. (as he is a HOF PLAYER because of his total game, but not just on his bat alone) plus Ichiro has 58.2 fWAR in 16 seasons which ,considering his late entry into MLB, is surely good enough. In his prime, Ichiro was around 20% above avg with the bat, but he's hurt his career avg because of playing these last 4 or 5 seasons as it now sits at 105%