Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

not editing my post, wouldn't delete that for a second, ESPECIALLY after the bravest most principled man on earth (and my hero) just died. You must be jokin'!
The only way I'll edit my post is to add to the list many more things that Ali did for humanity that you couldn't come close to in 5 lifetimes!

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

Hi Tom--here's when they made up and ali apologized...........
The wound to Frazier's psyche was deep. In the ensuing years, as Parkinson's syndrome limited Ali's speech and mobility, he has evolved into an almost saintly, ethereal force, the controversies of his past forgotten as his fame expanded and he raised millions of dollars for charity. But Frazier has searched for wider renown and struggled to shed his bitterness.

Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.

"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."

Frazier embraced the apology.

"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

Hi Tom--here's when they made up and ali apologized...........
The wound to Frazier's psyche was deep. In the ensuing years, as Parkinson's syndrome limited Ali's speech and mobility, he has evolved into an almost saintly, ethereal force, the controversies of his past forgotten as his fame expanded and he raised millions of dollars for charity. But Frazier has searched for wider renown and struggled to shed his bitterness.

Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.

"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."

Frazier embraced the apology.

"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."

Frazier said after all of this that Ali only apologized through a reporter and not to him personally.

Tom C

[George]

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by George

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

Well, just to be accurate, that conviction was unanimously reversed by the US Supreme Court, with one justice recusing.

[George]

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by George

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

My take, and this does not at all justify it because it was ugly, was that it was psychological warfare and nothing more. Just Ali trying to get into his opponent's head with whatever would mess with his head the most. I don't think he meant it. He did apologize to Joe's son Marvis I have read, just couldn't bring himself to do it face to face with Joe.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My take, and this does not at all justify it because it was ugly, was that it was psychological warfare and nothing more. Just Ali trying to get into his opponent's head with whatever would mess with his head the most. I don't think he meant it. He did apologize to Joe's son Marvis I have read, just couldn't bring himself to do it face to face with Joe.

He verbally assaulted the man to the point where his family received death threats FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL other than to promote a fight and make money. He alienated Frazier from an entire segment of the population. In doing so he denied Frazier the opportunity to be loved by those that he most wanted to be loved by. And after all of this he still never apologized to his face.

I think the world of Ali, but this part of his life I simply cannot get past.

Tom C

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

He verbally assaulted the man to the point where his family received death threats FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL other than to promote a fight and make money. He alienated Frazier from an entire segment of the population. In doing so he denied Frazier the opportunity to be loved by those that he most wanted to be loved by. And after all of this he still never apologized to his face.

I think the world of Ali, but this part of his life I simply cannot get past.

Tom C

good point, 'nuff said!

[hangman62]

Lets continue this on Net54 Boxing site

[Mdmtx]

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

My father was morally opposed to the war and didn't want to kill. However, he felt the call to serve his nation. The solution? He became a medic during Vietnam.

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

yes we'd have organized sports, and this forum and the Internet. Aren't we lucky that we're not all warmongers

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

I was admittedly pretty young when the Vietnam War was going on, but I don't remember there ever being a threat of the US being invaded from the North Vietnamese. Or the North Koreans during the Korean War for that matter. It was of some concern during WWII, but that's the only war I can think of since the War of 1812 where being invaded by a foreign nation was an issue. Historically, we have generally gone to war to protect other interests, most often economic ones.

Oh, just in case you forgot, we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled out and left South Vietnam to a fate we either could not or chose not to prevent. My step dad was an Air Force officer who spent several years over there in the early days of our involvement. To this day, he still doesn't understand what we were doing because he damn sure doesn't think we were trying very hard to win the war. But even though we lost, we still speak American English, play organized sports, have access to the internet, and even have the ability to post dumbass remarks on this forum from time to time.

[tjb1952tjb]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

+1

[FourStrikes]

...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

...

I think that was a good post for the end of this thread. Back to cards...