Clayton Kershaw

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Josh,

I'll stand by the first quote.

You will have to show me the second quote that I supposedly made, since I never made that quote. Kind of anxious to find out what I " said "!

I'm referring to post #33.

Lou

I believe that I misquoted you as the person who said something someone else said.................

[Joshchisox08]

Sale 9-0
doesn't face pitchers
But we're still talking about Kershaw................


Wonder what it would be like if Sale had been on a good team like Kershaw has most of his career. And then the whole pitching against a pitcher thing.

[the 'stache]

Really? You're holding up Sale's 9-0 record as proof that he's somehow better than Clayton Kershaw? You want to go there?

First, the statement about Sale not facing pitchers is really irrelevant, at least as far as 2016 is concerned. The National League is actually scoring more runs per game than the American League. It's not a big gap, but Kershaw is not realizing any benefit there. BTW, Kershaw has 27 career starts against American League teams--185 innings pitched. He has a 2.28 career ERA against teams with a DH.

Ok, let's look at this season for Sale and Kershaw.

ERA
Sale 1.58
Kershaw 1.67
Very slight edge to Sale.

Strikeouts
Sale 62 in 68.1 IP; 8.2 K/9 IP
Kershaw 88 in 70 IP; 11.3 K/9 IP
Huge edge to Kershaw

Walks
Sale 10 in 68.1 IP; 1.3 BB/9 IP
Kershaw 4 in 70 IP; 0.5 BB/9 IP
edge to Kershaw

WHIP
Sale 0.717
Kershaw 0.700
slight edge to Kershaw

FIP
Sale 2.81
Kershaw 1.36
LOL, not even close. Sale's FIP is more than double Kershaw's

Hits
Sale 5.1 H/9 IP
Kershaw 5.8 H/9 IP
edge her to Sale

Home runs
Sale 0.7 HR/9 IP
Kershaw 0.4 HR/9 IP
edge here to Kershaw

Strikeout to walk ratio
Sale 6.20
Kershaw 22.0
not even close

So, outside of the win loss record, where's Sale's advantage? Kershaw is 6-1, Sale is 9-0. Kershaw pitched 8 innings at Atlanta against the Braves, and gave up 2 runs. Got no run support. He also pitched 8 innings at San Franciso against the Giants, gave up 1 run. Got no run support. The difference between Sale's 9-0 record, and Kershaw being 8-1, is a matter of run support. Nothing else. FIP, which accounts for the things that pitchers alone can control, shows Kershaw is running circles around Sale.

Now, shall we compare Kershaw to Sale since Sale became a full-time player in 2011?

Win-loss
Sale 64-39 (.621)
Kershaw 94-34 (.734)
But let's forget win-loss records, shall we?

ERA
Sale 2.84
Kershaw 2.09

ERA +
Sale 142
Kershaw 175

shutouts
Sale 2
Kershaw 13

FIP
Sale 2.95
Kershaw 2.27

WHIP
Sale 1.046
Kershaw 0.919

Hit batters
Sale 49 in 928.1 IP
Kershaw 19 in 1198.0 IP

Hits/Home Runs/Walks/Strikeouts per 9 IP
Sale 7.3 H/0.9 HR/2.1 BB/10.1 K
Kershaw 6.4 H/0.5 HR/1.8 BB/10.0 K

Awards
Sale 4 x All Star
Kershaw 5 x All Star

MVP Awards
Sale 0
Kershaw 1

Cy Young Awards
Sale 0
Kershaw 3

Gold Gloves
Sale 0
Kershaw 1

Number of times leading the league in various statistical categories

Wins
Sale 0
Kershaw 2

ERA
Sale 0
Kershaw 4

Strikeouts
Sale 1
Kershaw 3

ERA +
Sale 1
Kershaw 3

WHIP
Sale 0
Kershaw 4

FIP
Sale 0
Kershaw 2

And, last but not least, a few metrics

WPA (win probability added-number of wins or losses this player has added to their team)
Sale 19.1
Kershaw 31.7

Black Ink (average Hall of Famer has a 40)
Sale 20
Kershaw 69

Gray Ink (average Hall of Famer has a 185)
Sale 89
Kershaw 158

Hall of Fame Monitor (average Hall of Famer has a 100)
Sale 30
Kershaw 120

Hall of Fame Standards (average Hall of Famer has a 50)
Sale 30
Kershaw 44

Oh, and most similar to at this point in their careers
Sale at age 26 Stephen Strasburg
Kershaw at age 27 Tom Seaver

So, you know what? Chris Sale is a very good pitcher. Nobody here denies that. But he's not in Clayton Kershaw's league, at least thus far, and only you can't seem to see that.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Sale 9-0
doesn't face pitchers
But we're still talking about Kershaw................


Wonder what it would be like if Sale had been on a good team like Kershaw has most of his career. And then the whole pitching against a pitcher thing.

[the 'stache]

A couple more things to consider. Performance against good teams.

Career numbers against teams with below .500 records
Sale 30-12, 2.53 ERA, 0.955 WHIP
Kershaw 66-26, 2.48 ERA, 1.051 WHIP

Career numbers against teams with .500 or + records
Sale 36-28, 3.01 ERA, 1.108 WHIP
Kershaw 54-31, 2.32 ERA, 0.991 WHIP

Kershaw's performance improves against better teams.

And as was alluded to earlier, Kershaw gets better as the game wears on.

Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 1st plate appearance, MLB rank.

1. Clayton Kershaw, 1.72 ERA
9. Chris Sale, 2.72 ERA

Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 2nd plate appearance, MLB rank.

1. Clayton Kershaw, 2.21 ERA
4. Chris Sale, 2.49 ERA

The second time through the lineup, Sale's ERA is only 0.28 higher than Kershaw's. But, it's in that third time through the lineup where Kershaw separates himself from Sale.

Since 2011, starting pitchers (min 100 starts) ERA against batters in their 3rd plate appearance, MLB rank.

1. Clayton Kershaw, 2.44 ERA
25. Chris Sale, 3.59 ERA

Again, Sale is very good. But Kershaw is the best in the game, and by a comfortable margin.

[KCRfan1]

Josh,

I'm more than willing to admit that I don't give Sale his due as a great pitcher. The media market and his coverage isn't very good despite the numbers he puts up. If Sale were on the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Chris Sale would be a household name.

I would love him on the Royals!!!

Who is your avatar of?

Side note.......Users or not, Bonds and Clemens were the absolute very best of their time, and rank among the greats. Even juicing, the pitcher still has to throw the ball with expertise, and the batter still has to square up the ball and hit it. Tremendous skill is still required regardless of " enhancement " or not.

[Dewey]

By comparison, Dodgers "#2 starter" Kazmir gave up 7 walks in 6 2/3 tonight. Against the worst hitting team in the majors. He's #2 alright. Despite being tops in the NL West 3 years running, the organization is wasting the career of their best pitcher since Koufax.

[clydepepper]

I realize how early it is in his career, but 'Thor' is having elite-level results - if he stays healthy...wow!


Of course, I'm not sure if he has even had his first Tommy John - which has seemingly become almost a right of passage.


Back in my playing days, a really good curveball was termed a 'Double-Yellow Hammer'.

.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Josh,

I'm more than willing to admit that I don't give Sale his due as a great pitcher. The media market and his coverage isn't very good despite the numbers he puts up. If Sale were on the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Chris Sale would be a household name.

I would love him on the Royals!!!

Who is your avatar of?

Side note.......Users or not, Bonds and Clemens were the absolute very best of their time, and rank among the greats. Even juicing, the pitcher still has to throw the ball with expertise, and the batter still has to square up the ball and hit it. Tremendous skill is still required regardless of " enhancement " or not.

Lou,

Avatar is of Ian "Lemmy" Kilmister and "Philthy" Phil Taylor both passed away lat last year