O/T what happened to the NBA? Bad Marketing?

[Archive]

Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Absolutely

[Archive]

Posted By: jdrum

Yes I forgot to mention "Fly" Williams. Those Spirits were quite a bunch. Along with the aforementioned "Movin" Marvin "Bad News" Barnes, Maurice Lucas, Moses Malone, "Fly" WIlliams, we had "Goo" Kennedy, ML Carr, Freddie Lewis and Gus Gerard out of Virginia. When you went to a Spirits game you could buy a $2 ticket and be sitting at courtside by the 2nd quarter. It was great fun but never caught on in St. Louis. I loved the ABA. And Tom, it was always a treat to see Artis and the boys roll in from Louisville. Artis had an afro for the ages too!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Tom- the Kentucky Colonels were pretty much the gold standard of the ABA, with Artis Gilmore and Dan Issel. I was surprised that when the leagues merged the franchise disbanded.

Remember the season the Kentucky Colonels went 68-14, but the John Roche led Nets knocked them out of the playoffs quickly in the first round? That was big news in New York

[Archive]

Posted By: David Goff

Hey Tom

The other team we were close to get was the Vancouver Grizzlies. We lost out to Memphis only because they had plan in place for a new arena and we didnt. If we had our plan for a new arena then, we would have landed them. Still don't know why we are building that darn thing. Nothing wrong with Freedom Hall.

[Archive]

Posted By: LenK59

love the NBA.....great to be a Lakers fan the last 2 seasons........now we need to knock out the Celtics!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

For those of you that are ABA fans or even just basketball fans, the best basketball book I have ever read was "Loose Balls"--which is a year by year anecdotal history of the ABA--it is hilarious. Perhaps the most entertaining book about sports I have ever read.

One other story I remember was about NBA veteran Len Chappell wanting to send a message to Warren Armstrong Jabali who reportedly was a bad guy. As both teams were set up for the opening tap he slugged Jabali and knocked him unconscious. I believe Chappel was viewed as a hero for this and all he received was a technical foul.

Another one was Marvin Barnes walking into the Spirits locker room 5 minutes before they were to take the floor in an important game dressed up with lots of gold and chains with a couple of Big Macs which he quickly downed while telling his teammates--don't worry boys--the News is here. News as I remember had a huge game.

[Archive]

Posted By: jdrum

"News" or "Bad News" Barnes depending on who you ask was a great treat to watch. I believe he avg'd almost 25 ppg and over 10 reb a game as a rookie. Now it was the ABA but I have euphoric recall about watching him as a young teen. Really a tragic story of drugs, hard time and squandered talent.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I heard a story about Barnes- and I'm not sure it's true- that he showed up for a game a few minutes before tip-off, only had time to change into his uniform under the grandstand, then stepped on the court and scored over 50 points. Does anyone else remember that?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

hasn't been mentioned here, and that is simply that they don't play baseball!

Ryan, to answer your question, to the extent that it's relevant or your interest is genuine, I don't really have a great answer regarding tattoos, other than the fact that I have a very prejudiced degree of disrespect for people who choose to disfigure/disrespect their body like that. Less is better, more is terrible. Plus, from every account I've heard, it hurts, so I don't understand it from that perspective, either.

I just don't understand the decision making that goes into it, and so I can't fully relate to those people who have them, particularly in large amounts. I do strongly believe that I am racially unbiased towards it, though. So I don't think your previous comment about the integration applies to me or my thinking on the NBA or tattoos.

But that's basically it.
I understand I am unusual, and it is probably not fully based in rational thought. I did not mean to offend you or others. It's just a blanket statement about my own personal problem with relating to the league, given the proliferation of tattoos displayed on many of the players. Perhaps easier to see than on athletes of other leagues, as they wear more clothing.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,



That story I believe is in "Loose Balls" as well. You ought to read the book--as an ABA fan you would love it.



Barry--we can't agree about politics but we can agree on card grading and the ABA

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

Jim C. is correct. "Loose Balls" is a great book. Very funny.


Barry,

If you have trouble finding a copy, let me know and I'll loan you mine.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ricky Y

Well I've been a long time basketball junkie and NBA fan...specifically suffering fan of the Warriors. Still go to as many games as I can and watch most if not all games when I don't. I don't really see that the game is any worse..its just changed...an evolution and it all has to be seen from the prespective of who the game is being marketed to..I talk to fans of all ages at the game..the older ones who grew up with West, Chamberlain etc..says its not the way it used to be...those in my group who saw Alcindor, Dr J as a kid and Magic and Bird as young adults also say its not as good as it was..but to today's young fans..its great..the greatest show out there...The top players of today, Kobe, Lebron, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Parker, Duncan are as good as anyone in the past. Ture the fundamentals of the game is not emphasized today, the art of the bounce pass, bank shots..and even pure jumpshots are seldom seen, but the athletes are taller, bigger, faster and can jump better too..why late it in or jump shoot.. if you can just go over someone and just dunk it?

As for the baggy pants, tatoos..etc..again the evolution of our culture (or perhaps deevoulution to some...)..remember when our parents used to be chagrined when we were kids by the way we acted and dressed..

Ricky

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Jim VB- I'll let you know.

Jim C.- I was a huge ABA fan. The year the Nets went to the finals but lost to Indiana, in 1971-72, I attended eight of the nine playoff games the Nets had at the Coliseum. To show you how times have changed, we would show up a half hour before the game with our student cards and get a good seat for maybe $6. And we're talking the Championship round too. There were always seats still available.

That was when I got to see Julius Erving and George Gervin play for the Virginia Squires- I believe it was the second round.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I know it will never happen because the Players Association would howl, but I suspect if the 24 second clock were extended to 35 seconds you might find that more teamwork would evolve.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

But the scores would drop to 75-70. Fans would yawn through that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I suppose..but can't we all agree that the college game, where the 35 second clock exists, is infinitely more interesting than the pro game? And many college teams -- usually the most athletic -- average in the 80s or low 90s.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The college game is a lot of fun to watch, but all of the great college players leave early for the NBA. It's diluted the talent level a bit.

[Archive]

Posted By: bobw

As an ABA collector and fan, here is the definitive web site on the ABA:

http://www.remembertheaba.com/

Also here in 6 parts is the HBO documentary from a few years ago on the ABA. Lots of rare color footage. Long live Kentucky Colonels, New York Nets and the Miami Floridians ball girls.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMtemANXw0

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8f5mcGrIgI

Part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS23zC_Z9eE

Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2buDIvVldkg

Part5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfGXq1axXJ0

Part6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyApumHn3mY

[Archive]

Posted By: Walter

Like many of you I have been watching the NBA for over 30 years I am one of the biggest basketball fans there is. I love watching the NBA and marvel at the skills and athleticism of the players. There are jaw-dropping plays in almost every game. I don't think I need to convince anybody that today's players are more athletically gifted than players from the past.

That being said, something has changed--us. We've all gotten older and the players have stayed the same age. I remember when Charles Barkley and his draft class came into the League and people said they didn't respect the history of the game, they didn't play the game like players of the past, and they are only playing for money. Now, almost 25 years later, they are finished their playing days and we're saying the kids these days don't play like Charles and Clyde Drexler and others. They played for the love of the game. Today's players are only playing for money. And we'll say the same things 25 years from now about Derrick Rose, Chris Paul and LeBron James.

Every older generation says the same things about the younger generation. Every older generation thinks theirs is the best and today's players in any sport can't compare. Look at the comments here. Everyone remembers the Doc or Larry and Magic or the ABA, or Cousy and Russell. And I watched all of those players over the years and quite honestly today's players are better. I have a library of some games from the 60s and 70s. Trust me-- it was not better basketball. It was slower, the players weren't as skilled and they did not shoot as well. The next time John Havlicek dribbles with his off hand will be the first time. Don't get me wrong, Havlicek and others were great players, but the players today have evolved and are far more skilled.

The game itself has certainly changed over the years. The one-on-one game hasn't just started recently. For the mid to late 80s Sixers it was give the ball to Barkley and clear out. Either he'll drive and get fouled or pass out for a jumper. It was as boring as basketball could be. In 1994 the Heat and the Knicks played a finals that set basketball back 40 years. I hoped that the Phoenix Suns would win the title, so that other teams would copy their running style, but that was not to be. As soon as a run and gun team wins then everyone in the League will start to copy them.

I don't think that it is bad marketing or tattoos or hip hop that has changed the game. It isn't bad marketing, the NBA is just not marketing to middle age white guys (me). We don't seem to be their audience, regardless of the demographics of game attendees. I was watching NBA-TV the other night and I had a hard time following the names of the players as the host kept referring to players by these made up names like C-Mobe or CP3. That's part of the problem--I'm getting older and not in tune with the younger generation.

So we can look back with fondness at our youth and the sports heroes we watched, but let's not denigrate the new generations of players because of our wistfulness for the past.

Always looking for T59 Flag cards and T113 Types of Nations.
http://www.t59flags.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Yes the game and our society changed..But don't blame it all in the perceptions of middle aged white guys who just don't get it!
Put it on the players and on the league! Nobody is buying this watered down version of the NBA..
Too many teams too many young immature kids no emphasis on basic basketball skills..etc...

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

society in general. Anyone who doesn't see the major changes in society in the last 10-15 years would be blind. Guess there have been similar changes in society within every generation forever and there will be more to come in the future. Just sit back and enjoy them...........

As for the white guys, take a look at the luxury boxes in most NBA stadiums and I'd say that it's overwhelmingly the middle-aged white guys out there, so I'd say the NBA still markets to the middle-aged white guy............

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I think all major sports are catering more to corporate America and less to the average fan. Who can afford to go to games anymore? I think it's a bad trend, but they don't consult with me before making decisions.

[mickeymao34]

wow! 8 years back and these guys were spot on! i wonder what they would think 8 years later because the NBA is even worse now. Modern day NBA blows!

[Rickyy]

NBA is currently great for me... my Warriors sucked for the last 20 or so years... but now...

Ricky Y

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

wow! 8 years back and these guys were spot on! i wonder what they would think 8 years later because the NBA is even worse now. Modern day NBA blows!

I completely disagree. Golden State will win 73+ games, with the best selfless team I've seen in my adult life, and with a good Christian role model in Steph Curry leading the way. The NBA is back!

Referees are too influential in todays game. Subjectivity in calling the game has always been an issue but now certain players and teams blatantly get the benefit of the whistle and it often renders games FT shooting contests and takes all the competitiveness and fun out of the game. Just let teams play

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I completely disagree. Golden State will win 73+ games, with the best selfless team I've seen in my adult life, and with a good Christian role model in Steph Curry leading the way. The NBA is back!

With all the hoopla justifiably surrounding GS, it's easy to overlook that the Spurs are 42-8, just three games behind them. My perception, and maybe it was always the case, is that there are a seemingly endless number of mediocre to really BAD teams and that there is just no point watching a typical game.

[frankbmd]

A corollary development that has occurred since 2008 is the increasing number of four year colleges recruiting one year players, who enter the NBA after their freshman year. It might work for LeBron and Durant, but it leads to a lot of bodies on the court with no identity. I suspect the number of "sophomores" who last more than a year or two in the NBA is decreasing, being continually replaced by new "no names".

I'm not a fan of today's NBA, but admit to watching a few Warrior games this year. I suspect Curry et al would have succeeded in any era.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank, easy to see why you would have not much interest.

2001–02 NBA Eastern 9th Central 5th 41 41 .500 9
2002–03 NBA Eastern 7th Central 4th 42 40 .512 8 Lost First Round (Nets) 4–2
2003–04 NBA Eastern 6th Central 4th 41 41 .500 20 Lost First Round (Pistons) 4–1
2004–05 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 30 52 .366 24
2005–06 NBA Eastern 8th Central 5th 40 42 .488 24 Lost First Round (Pistons) 4–1
2006–07 NBA Eastern 14th Central 5th 28 54 .341 25
2007–08 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 26 56 .317 33
2008–09 NBA Eastern 12th Central 5th 34 48 .415 32
2009–10 NBA Eastern 6th Central 2nd 46 36 .561 17 Lost First Round (Hawks) 4–3 John Hammond (EoY)
2010–11 NBA Eastern 9th Central 3rd 35 47 .427 27
2011–12 NBA Eastern 9th Central 3rd 31 35 .469 19
2012–13 NBA Eastern 8th Central 3rd 38 44 .463 11½ Lost First Round (Heat) 4–0
2013–14 NBA Eastern 15th Central 5th 15 67 .183 41
2014–15 NBA Eastern 6th Central 3rd 41 41 .500 12 Lost First Round (Bulls) 4–2
2015–16 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 20 31 .392 17

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Frank, easy to see why you would have not much interest.

2001–02 NBA Eastern 9th Central 5th 41 41 .500 9
2002–03 NBA Eastern 7th Central 4th 42 40 .512 8 Lost First Round (Nets) 4–2
2003–04 NBA Eastern 6th Central 4th 41 41 .500 20 Lost First Round (Pistons) 4–1
2004–05 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 30 52 .366 24
2005–06 NBA Eastern 8th Central 5th 40 42 .488 24 Lost First Round (Pistons) 4–1
2006–07 NBA Eastern 14th Central 5th 28 54 .341 25
2007–08 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 26 56 .317 33
2008–09 NBA Eastern 12th Central 5th 34 48 .415 32
2009–10 NBA Eastern 6th Central 2nd 46 36 .561 17 Lost First Round (Hawks) 4–3 John Hammond (EoY)
2010–11 NBA Eastern 9th Central 3rd 35 47 .427 27
2011–12 NBA Eastern 9th Central 3rd 31 35 .469 19
2012–13 NBA Eastern 8th Central 3rd 38 44 .463 11½ Lost First Round (Heat) 4–0
2013–14 NBA Eastern 15th Central 5th 15 67 .183 41
2014–15 NBA Eastern 6th Central 3rd 41 41 .500 12 Lost First Round (Bulls) 4–2
2015–16 NBA Eastern 13th Central 5th 20 31 .392 17

Sorry Peter, I was never disappointed in the Bucks, for I never watched one of their games.

I take that back. I do think I watched one of their games when a kid named Alcindor was playing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Sorry Peter, I was never disappointed in the Bucks, for I never watched one of their games.

I take that back. I do think I watched one of their games when a kid named Alcindor was playing.

Yeah that kid was the kareem of the crop.

[Joshchisox08]

Used to be a big time NBA fan, used to play basketball way more than baseball as well.

I haven't watched the NBA in about 10 years now. Interest faded. I was, believe it or not was a Jordan/Bulls fan. Then when Rip Hamilton made it to the NBA (used to follow UCONN being from CT and all) I was a Detroit fan.

Those Detroit teams were what the NBA was all about. They played defense and because of that they were not well liked. Most fans liked a boring 100+ points a game where opponents would just let a guy shoot without putting up a hand.

My father and I full heartedly believed that the officiating (even more so around that time period) was completely rigged. The superstars or the teams that would draw the most revenue/fans/ticket sales would get all the calls. Not only all the calls but an over obvious one-sided plethora of bull shit whistle blowing to keep them in the game. I remember that Rasheed Wallace had been suspended for "Speaking of conspiracy theories" What could he have possibly been talking about?????

Shortly after one officiator get's defined as the scapegoat and goes to jail. It was just him that was crooked wasn't it?????????? SURE. Although my father and I knew that it was going on, the fact that it officially became true and they singled out one referee and let all the others take no heat was enough for me. I simply lost total interest after that.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With all the hoopla justifiably surrounding GS, it's easy to overlook that the Spurs are 42-8, just three games behind them. My perception, and maybe it was always the case, is that there are a seemingly endless number of mediocre to really BAD teams and that there is just no point watching a typical game.

+1 on the Spurs. Growing up in Boston, I've been a Celtic fan all my life. That said, Tim Duncan is my all time favorite NBA player. It still hurts that the ping pong balls didn't bounce in the Celtics favor, but think of what a career Duncan has had. And I can't think of one remotely negative story that has ever come out about him. No arrests, no abuse charges, not getting players traded, whining about not getting enough shots. He just quietly went about putting up one of the top five careers of all time.

My wife has no real interest in sports, but she is aware of the top names (Brady, Tiger, Arod, Lebron, Jordan, etc....). As I test, I asked her about Tim Duncan. She couldn't even tell me what sport he played. Now that is a superstar who flies under the radar!!

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Sounds like integration ruined the NBA for most fans on the board. Tattoos? Tattoos are why you don't like the NBA? Come on! I think you mean tattoos combined with corn rows, don't you? Pretty sure some of the people saying tattoos and thugs are ruining the NBA are the same ones who sang the praises of Josh Hamilton's Home Run Derby performance and wore fake Jason Giambi moustaches at Yankee Stadium. Or won't you watch those guys because they have tattoos?

The NBA is alive and well here in Colorado, in spite of the tattoos.

GO NUGGETS!

-Ryan

Tattoos are a pretty stupid reason. I think it's more the people who are wearing them. I wouldn't so much call them thugs but more like wannabe "hard", "fake thug", etc.

[53Browns]

It's not a surprise. The same will eventually happen to the NFL. After all, they are mere sports. It was Baseball however that President William Howard Taft, in 1910, declared as officially being our National Pastime. The rest....fads.

Tattoos? Are you guys serious? Character issues? I don't see that either.

The top players in the league; LeBron James, Steph Curry, and Kevin Durant all seem to be men of the highest moral order. No more Jailblazers, Malice at the Palace, or Gilbert Arenas just being an idiot.

Watch some basketball, before you comment on such things; Golden State is a great example of teamwork and execution. The Spurs are a methodical machine with veteran leadership. Their games are lessons in sharing the basketball, and selflessness. Rather see that than isolation, one-on-one, Utah Jazz pick-and-rolls, or Kobe jacking up 30 shots a game. IMO the team game has dramatically improved in the last ten years.

That being said, something needs to be done about intentional fouls to poor free throw shooters. That practice is almost epidemic, and horrible to watch. Just my two cents.

[Econteachert205]

Steph curry has reinvigorated the nba because he looks like a normal person. That's the appeal of baseball, Dustin pedroia could be the guy bagging your groceries.

[bbcard1]

I have not paid any attention for a number of years. Hassan Whiteside has got me at least interested in the Heat.

[Louieman]

I've always liked almost all sports but basically proclaimed myself a baseball fan only. Basketball used to be near the bottom of my list, but honestly I never really had a good reason (maybe because I was terrible at playing it).

But in the last few years, watching the Golden State Warriors has completely flipped that around for me. And now I watch intently all the time, for both the Dubs and other teams.

And honestly, I regret that I didn't do it earlier. I never gave basketball the attention it deserved. I feel that everything that baseball doesn't have, basketball does, and vice-versa. The two sports give me everything I love about sports. And there's plenty of great athletes and great people in both.

Baseball is a sport for the patient, for those who appreciate history. So much happens when seemingly nothing is happening. And basketball is all about a rhythm, about a pace that absolutely crams as much action as you can into such a little time. And at times, especially with the Dubs, it looks beautiful, just like baseball. My two cents

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by 53Browns

It's not a surprise. The same will eventually happen to the NFL. After all, they are mere sports. It was Baseball however that President William Howard Taft, in 1910, declared as officially being our National Pastime. The rest....fads.

I sure hope you're right about the NFL. God how I can't stand that profession or league.

I believe there was a study and there was like 5 minutes of actual gameplay in the 55 hours it takes to play a game. The rest is players shooting up, beating wives, shooting each other, QBs on the phone, and guys scratching their crotches.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Steph curry has reinvigorated the nba because he looks like a normal person. That's the appeal of baseball, Dustin pedroia could be the guy bagging your groceries.

Or maybe he has reinvigorated it because he is the greatest pure shooter of all time and a great team player as well? I don't think his looks have much to do with it. Michael Jordan was wildly popular; in the context of the times with his shaved head and earring his looks were not exactly the guy next door but who cared.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

Steph curry has reinvigorated the nba because he looks like a normal person. That's the appeal of baseball, Dustin pedroia could be the guy bagging your groceries.

Or Pigroia and his snout could be found at your local farm as well

[mickeymao34]

NBA 80s and early 90s never to be repeated. But i have to agree with Curry.. Amazing player with old school team first ethics and a spectacular talent with seemingly zero modern day athlete arrogance.

[timn1]

I had given up on the NBA a long time ago (not for the "thug" reasons - BTW, some of you guys need to rethink your terminology, IMO). But Steph has inspired everywhere he has played - he got my alma mater Davidson to the Elite 8, for cryin' out loud. Now he's on track to be one of the iconic BKB players in history. Awesome!

[BicycleSpokes]

Steph is the most entertaining athlete alive right now. He has changed the math of the sport.

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Not an indictment of the NBA at all but I don't ever hear a single word about the game? No one ever mentions watching a game or even the highlights from the night before. I have not watched a minute of an NBA game in over 20 years.

Of course I live in the south where all talk is about SEC football, SEC recruiting and SEC Spring games.

[insidethewrapper]

The regular season means nothing . It's all the playoffs. The players only play half the game and are resting for the playoffs, which I never watch because it's during baseball season and summertime. Seems like a lot of gang type players which I can't relate too. Maybe I'm to old.