the list (of criminals) is revealed

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Dave, Good points but also back to another problem I found about " reserves"
I had consigned a few very high ticket items (Not Legendary) and I also wanted a reserve (sorta high) placed on the items. I was told that most auction houses dont like reserve because if the reserve on that item was possibly put to high then all the work that the AH did for you I.E. photos taken , descriptions written by staff, room taken up in the catalogue etc. would be lost if the item or items didnt sell. I found out that they would rather make something in and out (buyer ,seller) than nothing... on your dime!!

well heritage lets you do a reserve but you pay them a percentage or something if card doesn't sell.....some auction houses make you pay 20% on the highest bid if card doesn't sell...that way you wont have an unrealistic reserve and waste their time..

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

well heritage lets you do a reserve but you pay them a percentage or something if card doesn't sell.....some auction houses make you pay 20% on the highest bid if card doesn't sell...that way you wont have an unrealistic reserve and waste their time..

You may be correct now but back lets say several years ago most auction houses frowned upon reserve...

And also if you were one of the ones on the "Special Packages" list I bet you didnt have to pay a dime!

[ElCabron]

It's still shill bidding if you pay the BP and buy your own item back. It seems like you're all saying it's not.

-Ryan

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

It's still shill bidding if you pay the BP and buy your own item back. It seems like you're all saying it's not.

-Ryan

if the BP is 20% and the shiller is paying that I have ZERO problem...20% is going to prevent a lot of shilling..plus if someone is willing to pay 20% to keep a card...it must be going very under market price...I would bid at AHs with no problem if they said 'Shillers welcome but they must pay the 20%' BP

so if I bid 1000 and I get beat out at 1010 and that guy keeps his card but has to pay $200 to keep it..good for him...

if someone wins their own 1952 Topps PSA 8 Mantle..and they think 375,000 is too low and want 425,000 for the card..let them pay 375,00 to keep the card and pay a 70,000 BP...good luck to them there as well....I just don't seem them shilling that mantle that high..they would have to stop at at about 275,000...

the problem is when they don't have to pay a BP or its 5 percent etc

[glchen]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

if the BP is 20% and the shiller is paying that I have ZERO problem...20% is going to prevent a lot of shilling..plus if someone is willing to pay 20% to keep a card...it must be going very under market price...I would bid at AHs with no problem if they said 'Shillers welcome but they must pay the 20%' BP
...

You don't know this though. For AH's may give a portion of the BP back to the consignor (as well as waive the seller's commission) for large/loyal consignors. So for all we know, these consignors may only have had to risk a 5% effective (complete guess) BP through their shilling.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Right my scenario is if 20% is paid.....I would bid at AH's that say 'shilling Is allowed subject to 20% BP if win item'

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Right my scenario is if 20% is paid.....I would bid at AH's that say 'shilling Is allowed subject to 20% BP if win item'

Which ones are those?

[RichMcGillicuddy]

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

[Beastmode]

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[ullmandds]

Shill shillery shill shillery shill shill shillroo!

Originally Posted by Beastmode

My suggestion may of been over-simplified, and I can understand why some of you are worked up. I've been about as vocal as anyone against shilling and retractors. Reference my post in June of last year (not sure how to link posts).

Quote:
..."Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first"



Everyone of us has probably been shilled, some of us multiple times. It's too dam easy for these scum to do this via the internet bidding platform. IMO, shilling is still rampant at AH's; less so on e-bay.

Here's my mental health bidding tips; just my opinions, as I'm primarily a buyer:

1. Assume your are going to be shilled if you bid at an AH. Place your bid as if your going to be shilled; makes your life so much more enjoyable when you win or lose.

2. If your max bid wins an auctions and you think the underbidder is a shiller, don't cry sour grapes, see rule #1. Lower your max next time so your competing against real bidders, not shillers.

3. Learn to enjoy coming in 2nd. I'm an aggressive bidder on cards I like, but I come in 2nd a lot. In all likelihood, shilllers have won several of these auctions, which is just fine with me as long as they paid the commission. This is a hobby, not surgery. If you bid enough, you start to get a feel where shillers will bid.

4. Follow up with your AH policy on reserve bids, consigner won bids, bid history, etc. Hold them to the fire, ask for clarification in writing. Read their fine print. Do nothing verbally.

5. Do not ever say the market was artificially inflated when your bid wins an auction and you may of been shilled. See rule #1 and 2. If your max is what you are willing to pay, then you just set the market my friend.

6. If anyone associated with your AH is on the "list", stay away.

Does shilling suck, yes. Is it illegal , yes. Did the shiller drive up the price, yes. Do you want to get heart disease stressing about shillers? No. Do you have countless free hours to go after these bastards, hire a lawyer and go to civil court? No. Then bid what you think the card is worth, then move on and let the shillers rot in hell. that's my point

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by RichMcGillicuddy

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy

will said

[drcy]

Also remember that Mastro was taped as saying (according to him) that most of the high grade cards in holders are altered. I, for one, think the whole high grade section of the hobby is a farce and a crock.

In psychology there is a concept called swarm intelligence. I've often said that humans often exhibit swarm stupidity.

[Joshchisox08]

Not sure if anyone posted this as I haven't payed too much attention to this thread but:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ya...ampaign=buffer

[HobokenJon]

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

Something to keep in mind in the discussion about Forman: It isn't a surprise that his name appeared on the list as a shill bidder. He accused Mastro in a 2010 lawsuit of using "unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals," according to a trade press article at the time. (Pasted in full, below.)

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/

Looking back six years later, Forman's allegations were on the mark. I'd say give him the benefit of the doubt for now. A lot of people whose names showed up on the same list may be in the same boat.

To be sure, I'm uncomfortable with Forman's involvement as a market participant. He shouldn't be buying and selling collectibles that his company grades. The same goes for David Hall. It undermines their credibility and integrity, which hurts all of us.


SGC Boss Claims Shill Bidding in Counter Suit
February 8, 2010 By Rich Mueller

Seven months after being sued for money they say he owed them, SGC president Dave Forman has submitted a counterclaim against Mastro Auctions.

The court papers filed January 27 accuse the parent company of the now defunct auction house of several transgressions including shill bidding, a practice that artificially raises bids to generate a higher profit.

The counterclaim obtained by Sports Collectors Daily also states that a grand jury was convened in Chicago last month to see evidence and hear testimony on issues centered around an FBI investigation of unethical practices within the sports collecting hobby.

Forman, the owner of one of the hobby’s largest card grading and authentication services, also claims the auction company knowingly sold him a T200 Fatima Premium Cleveland Americans card that had been altered.

Mastro Auctions, which shut down last year, filed suit against Forman in the same Illinois state court last June, seeking $400,000 it says he owes. In 2007 and 2008, Mastro claims Forman purchased cards but didn’t pay for them. Forman claims Ketap (the name of the corporation that once did business as Mastro Auctions) has not produced receipts in support of those allegations and disputes that figure.

Forman claims the amount he owes Mastro was in error because his account with the auction house was never credited with proceeds from the sale of several lots he had consigned, including a 1934-36 Diamond Stars complete set, a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth graded PSA 7, a T206 Buck Herzog graded SGC 88 and four rare comic books.

The suit indicates the grading and authentication service owner and the auction house had a long-standing relationship that involved Forman buying and selling cards. Ketap claimed in its suit that “dozens” of rare collectible items and memorabilia were bought and sold by Forman.

Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals.

“Ketap and its officers knowingly conducted rampant fraud through a process known as shill bidding,” the claim states.

Forman claims that in a 2006 auction “a Ketap employee shill bid on a Ted Williams baseball card when, upon information and belief, he neither had the money or interest in owning it.”

Another of Forman’s shill bidding allegations states that in May of 2006, company officials artificially raised the bidding for an L-1 Leather Ty Cobb. “The item was then selling for $17,000,” the court papers state. “During that converstion, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum bid of $41,000 for that item. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector’s maximum bid. Upon information and belief the $41,000 bid was the result of shill bidding effectuated by Mastro and Ketap.”

Forman also claims Mastro Auctions allowed various consignors to look at the ceiling bid information during its auction in the fall of 2007 and alleges that while Mastro promoted a “no reserve” auction, selected consignors were allowed to have reserves on their items.

Mastro Auctions was in the process of ending its run as one of the hobby’s top auction houses when Forman also claims it sold a Jackie Robinson rookie card graded 98 by his company, and a 1911 T205 Ty Cobb card graded 84, without his permission. Forman claims the items sold for significantly less than the $125,000 minimum he would have accepted.

The counterclaim and third-party complaint filed by Forman and his attorneys, seeks punitive damages and attorney’s fees.

Uh...his brother was his shill bidder on nearly every item. What did Mastro say to him when his item didn't sell? Obviously if he wasn't doing the shilling he knew it was going on for a long time before any suit was brought forth.

[edjs]

For those that are wondering why anyone would buy their own card rather than it selling low, here is how it works. You bought a card for $1000, and now you feel it is worth $10000. You decide to send it to an auction house. Many auction houses will waive the consignor fee on high profile items, and will offer to share a percentage of the buyers premium with the consignor as well, for ease of math, let's say half. So the auction is closing, and your card is going to close low, so you buy it through your buddy at $5000. You now pay the house $6000, and they cut you your consignment check for $5500. You now have a total of $1500 invested in the card. Had you not bought the card and it sold to someone else for $5000, you would have made a profit of $4500. You didn't let it sell, so you consign it a couple months later, this time it sells for $7000 (same terms). You get a check for $7700, a profit of $6200. That is why people buy their own consignments instead of letting them sell low. I have never consigned a card, I don't have any of the big dollar collections, but I can figure out the "why" of it. This is in no way meant to condone any practice, I am just trying to clear the reasoning up. It is purely based on profit margins. I am also sure that, as an apprentice collector, I still don't understand or explain here all the nuances involved in the business end of this (I haven't even mentioned how setting historical sales records come into play as a reason for buying your own card), but I think my example paints a fairly accurate picture. Please correct me if I am wrong. No opinions of anyone listed in my post, per the rules.