New theory regarding the T206 brown LENOX cards....show us some of these rare dudes

[tedzan]

American Lithographic (ALC) printed the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 460 (Factory 42), LENOX, and UZIT cards circa...Feb 1911. Concurrently, ALC started producing
their Gold-bordered cards, beginning with their T80 (Military Series) which were printed with T206-type backs (LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, UZIT) and CAIRO MONOPOL.
The latter T-brand back was printed using BROWN ink.

I contend that the T206 brown LENOX cards are simply the result an ALC printer who had just completed a press run of T80 cards with CAIRO MONOPOL backs, then failed to
switch to Black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of T206 black LENOX cards.

In time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown LENOX backs. My 75 number tracks with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by Pat R in another thread, that brown LENOX cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown LENOX cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the T80 CAIRO MONOPOL cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.


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Currently, there are only 23 confirmed T206 subjects with brown LENOX backs......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Show us your brown LENOX cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.


TED Z
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[iwantitiwinit]

I like that theory and since there were so few of them maybe that same printer shifted back to the black ink very soon after he used up the current brown excess ink.

[egbeachley]

That's a very good theory. But maybe impossible to prove.

I'm not sure the scarcity of Cairo Monopol is relevant. They could have produced lots but the key is in the ink not being changed.

[mrvster]

plausible! great theory

[Yoda]

Ted, do you think your theory might be applicable to T207 Recruit backs with brown rather than black ink? I think it is a bit interesting this brown ink variation commands virtually no premium over its black cousin compared to the T206 brown Lenox which usually goes for a hefty number when they occasionally appear.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Seems plausible. Thanks to your post I just learned that on Lenox (baseball and military) and Cairo Monopol backs there are two dots (rather than a straight line) below the "ND" in the factory district designation. Funny how many subtle differences ALC designed into these cards.

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

That's a very good theory. But maybe impossible to prove.

I'm not sure the scarcity of Cairo Monopol is relevant. They could have produced lots but the key is in the ink not being changed.

The relevance of the scarcity of CAIRO MONOPOL (CM) cards to the scarcity of the T206 brown LENOX cards is simply a probability factor.

The short-printed T80 (CM) press runs translate to less probability of a "printer's mistake" in the application of the correct ink in the sub-
sequent press run of T206 LENOX backs.


TED Z
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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Ted, do you think your theory might be applicable to T207 Recruit backs with brown rather than black ink? I think it is a bit interesting this brown ink variation commands virtually no premium over its black cousin compared to the T206 brown Lenox which usually goes for a hefty number when they occasionally appear.

Sorry, old buddy, but I have not given much thought to any of the variations in the T207
cards since I sold my complete set some years ago.

Perhaps someone on this forum will chime in here and provide an answer to your question.


Take care,

TED Z
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[Blitzu]

It's funny you say that Ted because I'm avid T80 collector as well and I have seen more uzit's and even blanks then I've seen of the Cairo monopols. In my opinion those are the rarest T80's, but with uzit and blanks right there too.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

It's funny you say that Ted because I'm avid T80 collector as well and I have seen more uzit's and even blanks then I've seen of the Cairo monopols. In my opinion those are the rarest T80's, but with uzit and blanks right there too.

You're correct....but, for those here that are unfamiliar with the T80 set......

On any given day on ebay....there are 100's of T80 cards (mostly TOLSTOI) with a few LENOX and some UZIT.

Whatever, but seldom will you see a CAIRO MONOPOL or an OLD MILL for sale. If there is one, it will be selling for $500 - $1000 (if in decent condition).


TED Z
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[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

I don't think the CM backs are the same color as the brown lenox. Cairo Monopols are more black.

CM backs are tough, but Old Mills are just as tough in my experience if not tougher.

Either way, I 100% believe that studying t80s will shed a bunch of light T206...somehow.

It's very hard to compare back scarcity across the two sets though. Tolstoi backs were arguably listed in greater numbers than even the entire T206 tolstoi population.

Again, Old Mill backs are really difficult for T80s, but we know they're a common T206 back.

And Lenox T80s aren't very hard to find. Blank backed T80s might be just as hard to locate as a blank back T206.

Anyways, great theory, but in my opinion brown lenox backs are a lot different than the color of a Cairo Monopol back.

Rob

[tedzan]

Sorry, but I have to differ with you, old buddy.


Sure, the lettering "CAIRO MONOPOL" on my T80 is darker than the usual T206 brown LENOX color.

However, the brown color of the lettering:

"Cigarettes

MILITARY SERIES

ASSORTED SUBJECTS"

Is very similar to the color of the T206 brown LENOX cards.






Furthermore, as we know....the inks used in the Jan - Mar 1911 press runs of the last stages of T206 production vary in intensity (from light to dark).
Namely the BLUE ink of PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 cards and UZIT cards......and, also the BROWN ink used on T80 cards.


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TED Z
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[Jobu]

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[trdcrdkid]

For what it's worth --

The T80 Cairo Monopol that Ted posted used to belong to me, but I traded it to him while keeping another one that I still have. Here are scans of the backs of the two cards side by side, with the one that's now Ted's on the left and the one I still have on the right:



The ink on the right one looks maybe a little darker than the ink on the left one (Ted's), though it's not a dramatic difference, and scans can be deceptive. I just pulled out that card (the one on the right) and looked at it under a bright light, and I could definitely see it as dark brown. However, under the same bright light it's definitely darker than the ink on my T206 Broad Leaf 350, which in turn is noticeably darker than a Hindu (both pictured below). The Cairo Monopol is more brown than the ink on my better black Lenox (or the Cycle 350), but not as noticeably as the Broad Leaf or the Hindu.



So, the results are ambiguous, but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

[caramelcard]

I don't have a brown lenox in my collection to compare it to in person and it's difficult to compare with scans, but I see what you're saying about the lower half of the CM backs having a browner hue.

Very interesting.

[Sean]

scan0030.jpg

[Sean]

The color on the Lenox is darker than the brown on the Hindu. The brown Old Mills seem easy to explain. The Southern Leaguers were printed with three backs, Old Mill (black), Hindu (brown), and Piedmont (blue). It appears that a printer made an error and used the brown ink on a sheet of Old Mills, but caught the mistake and scrapped the sheet. That is why all Brown Old Mills are hand cut.

The Lenox are printed with a darker Brown. I've always thought that the ink matches the shade of brown used to print the player and team names at the bottom of the cards. It doesn't seem to have been caught by the printers the way the OMs were.

Thanks for the thread Ted.Your Cairo connection makes sense to me,but I'm no expert on that set.

[MVSNYC]

Question- can a Lenox subject come with either black or brown back? Or are there certain players exclusive to each, like it is the case with Brown Hindu and Red Hindu? (And to confirm, am I correct about that- if a player comes with Brown Hindu, you won't find him with Red?)

[tedzan]

Here are the 23 confirmed brown LENOX cards......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Twenty of these subjects also have black LENOX backs. Conroy, Pfeister, and Wagner have yet to be confirmed with black LENOX backs.


TED Z
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[MVSNYC]

Hi Ted, thanks for the list. That makes it very clear to me.

Was I correct regarding Red/Brown Hindu? If a particular player comes with one back, then they cannot come with the other?

[Pat R]

Was there another Lajoie Lenox confirmed? I thought the one that was originally confirmed as Black was determined to be Brown. I also thought
that Overall (hand at face) was only confirmed with a Brown Lenox.

[tedzan]

Thanx Sean,

We finally have a brown LENOX card on display here.


Look guys......at the tail-end of American Litho's T206 production (circa....Jan - Mar 1911), they printed LENOX, PIEDMONT Factory 42, and UZIT cards.
These press runs were short-printed; and, coincided with the beginning of the T80 press runs. One thing is very obvious with the print runs of the T206
PIEDMONT Factory 42 and UZIT cards, the BLUE ink application was not very consistent. Illustrated here are such examples......





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I cannot otherwise understand how these brown LENOX cards got into circulation, other than my CAIRO MONOPOL "connection".

However, I am open to any other explanations that sound possible.


TED Z
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[MVSNYC]

Ted- makes sense, as dark Uzits and dark P42's are rare to find...since i try to focus on dark, bold backs (in general), i was able to scoop up an example of each.

Re: your CAIRO MONOPOL theory, they seem darker than the Brown Lenox to me. FWIW, i've actually never been a big fan of Brown Lenox's, seems like a huge premium for such a subtle visual variation (yes, i know they're very rare, but too subtle of a difference to spend that much money on).

[tedzan]

Check-out Sean's brown LENOX in Post #16 in this thread and compare with my T80.






The lettering "CAIRO MONOPOL" on my T80 is somewhat darker than the usual T206 brown LENOX color.

However, the brown color of the lettering:

"Cigarettes

MILITARY SERIES

ASSORTED SUBJECTS"

Is very similar to the color of the T206 brown LENOX cards.



TED Z
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[MVSNYC]

Ted, I have a great eye...the Lenox isn't as dark as the Cairo. Perhaps Sean can post a hi-res, non-fuzzy scan, then we can properly compare.

[tedzan]

Are you comparing the characters below the brand "LENOX" with the characters below the brand "CAIRO MONOPOL" ?

If not....then you will NOT get an accurate color comparison.

The boldness of the CAIRO MONOPOL lettering (with respect to the LENOX lettering) creates an illusion that it is darker brown.


TED Z
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[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Ted, I have a great eye...the Lenox isn't as dark as the Cairo. Perhaps Sean can post a hi-res, non-fuzzy scan, then we can properly compare.

Sorry Mike, I know that it's not very good, but that's the only scanner that I have.

[MVSNYC]

Sean, no sweat...you have such great cards, might be worth investing $100 in a good scanner.

Ted, yes, I looked at the small type as well. Not as dark on the Lenox.

PS- can you confirm my earlier question, if a player has a Red Hindu back, does that exclude him from having a Brown Hindu back?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Sean, no sweat...you have such great cards, might be worth investing $100 in a good scanner.

Ted, yes, I looked at the small type as well. Not as dark on the Lenox.

PS- can you confirm my earlier question, if a player has a Red Hindu back, does that exclude him from having a Brown Hindu back?

Yes, if a player has a Red Hindu, he cannot also have a Brown Hindu back, and vice versa.

[MVSNYC]

Thanks Sean. That's what I figured, just wanted to confirm 100%...I've only been collecting T206 for 25 years, I should know that.

[tedzan]

Pardon my nit-picking....but, the term "player" can be misleading.

For example: Walter Johnson can be found with both brown HINDU and red HINDU backs.

The more appropriate term is "subject".

Johnson (portrait) with brown HINDU.

Or, Johnson (pitching) with red HINDU.


TED Z
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[MVSNYC]

Ted, I meant subject.

[toppcat]

I worked for a summer in a textile plant in the late 70's and all of the dyes there were mixed by hand. There were little receipes for each one with differing amounts of various colors used to create each shade, not unlike how paint is mixed at your local Home Depot. Different sized ladles were used to scoop in amounts of each contributing color but I can tell you that how much ink was in that ladle would vary scoop by scoop, sometimes dpepending upon who was doing the mixing.

I can easily see the American Litho inks being subect to less than precise mixtures, resulting in sme natural variance. Whether they were mixed prior to printing or during printing I can't say but if it's the latter then certain components could run out just before the end of a press run (or be used for the very beginning of another run).

Just a thought.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I worked for a summer in a textile plant in the late 70's and all of the dyes there were mixed by hand. There were little receipes for each one with differing amounts of various colors used to create each shade, not unlike how paint is mixed at your local Home Depot. Different sized ladles were used to scoop in amounts of each contributing color but I can tell you that how much ink was in that ladle would vary scoop by scoop, sometimes dpepending upon who was doing the mixing.

I can easily see the American Litho inks being subect to less than precise mixtures, resulting in sme natural variance. Whether they were mixed prior to printing or during printing I can't say but if it's the latter then certain components could run out just before the end of a press run (or be used for the very beginning of another run).

Just a thought.

Same with printing, inks were hand mixed according to a recipe which wasn't always exact.

It was mixed before being put in the press.


I don't buy the changing plates while leaving the ink in the press. If the later series were done on a flatbed press that's even less likely. The "plate" would have been a stone usually about 3-4 inches thick, and a large one would weigh a lot. A 19 x 23 weighs anywhere from 147 -180 Lbs depending on thickness. Not exactly something that would be easy to change, and the ink would probably start to get dried out while the change was being done.

Even with plates it's good practice to wash the press down at the end of a job.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I can easily see the American Litho inks being subject to less than precise mixtures, resulting in some natural variance. Whether they were mixed prior to printing or during printing I can't say but if it's the latter then certain components could run out just before the end of a press run (or be used for the very beginning of another run).

Just a thought.

Dave

A very cogent thought.


Thanks,

TED Z
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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Sorry Mike, I know that it's not very good, but that's the only scanner that I have.

I'm in the same "boat" as you. I've had my little Epson scanner since 1998, and it provides me excellent scans of ungraded cards. Fairly good scans of PSA graded cards;
however, not clear scans of SGC graded cards (especially their back scans).

Examples......

..



TED Z
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'm in the same "boat" as you. I've had my little Epson scanner since 1998, and it provides me excellent scans of ungraded cards. Fairly good scans of PSA graded cards;
however, not clear scans of SGC graded cards (especially their back scans).




TED Z
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Ted, try leaving the lid up on your scanner (if you don't already do this).
My Epson is only a couple of years old but if you leave the lid up the
scans come out much clearer especially with SGC and Beckett slabs.

[DerekMichael]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'm in the same "boat" as you. I've had my little Epson scanner since 1998, and it provides me excellent scans of ungraded cards. Fairly good scans of PSA graded cards;
however, not clear scans of SGC graded cards (especially their back scans).

Examples......

..



TED Z
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Agreed!

[Luke]

I think all you guys that have a scanner without a CCD element should really upgrade. It seems funny to have 5 and 6 figure collections, but not want to spend $50 to be able to take clear scans. I got my Epson v33 for $40, and it is amazing.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

I think all you guys that have a scanner without a CCD element should really upgrade. It seems funny to have 5 and 6 figure collections, but not want to spend $50 to be able to take clear scans. I got my Epson v33 for $40, and it is amazing.

What worse are the big sellers on ebay that put up a bunch of cards with blurry scans. You always have nice clear scans with your listings. (btw the
Evers cubs you just listed has a plate scratch).

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, try leaving the lid up on your scanner (if you don't already do this).
My Epson is only a couple of years old but if you leave the lid up the
scans come out much clearer especially with SGC and Beckett slabs.

I've scanned with the lid down and the lid up (with and without ambient light in the room). And, below here is the result.
The back of this Donlin card is actually cleaner than this image indicates. If this card was in a PSA holder, the front and
the back images would have been clearer than these images.

It's an 18 year old machine with old technology. One of these days I will replace it.

Anyway, I really appreciate your advice.


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TED Z
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[2dueces]

It sounds very likely. During the depression when the factories were making depression glass as promotions to be included in boxes of soap and other products the makers would not clean out the old colors before adding the new color batch. So they would have different hues and tints in the first batch of the new color. So first runs of greens or pinks would have different hues. This glass was created to give Americans jobs. Quality wasn't as important as keeping people working. Now since these cards were made to strengthen boxes of cigarettes it is more than likely that using brown wasn't a big deal as these were also promotional and in effect free with the purchase of the cigarette brand. Of course now 100 years later it drives everyone insane.
Misspelled names, broken dies, scraps, missing colors, proofs and of course color variations. What a great laugh the printers would have at our expense.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

I think all you guys that have a scanner without a CCD element should really upgrade. It seems funny to have 5 and 6 figure collections, but not want to spend $50 to be able to take clear scans. I got my Epson v33 for $40, and it is amazing.

This.

I was thinking same thing...glad someone said it.

[tedzan]

I recently received an email from a Net54 reader who questions the existence of the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) with a Black LENOX back.

The Cobb (bat off shoulder) Brown LENOX has been confirmed.....and, this fellow contends that a Brown LENOX example has been mistaken
for a Black LENOX example.

Therefore, if anyone on this forum has (or knows of) a Black LENOX Cobb (bat off shoulder), please post your findings. Your response will be
greatly appreciated.


Currently, there are only 23 confirmed T206 subjects with brown LENOX backs......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



TED Z
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[Pat R]

Ted, as I stated earlier I think the Lajoie (bat) that was confirmed with Black Lenox was also determined to be Brown unless a different Lajoie was confirmed with a Black Lenox back.

[tedzan]

Yes, I'm aware of that Lajoie situation. However, years ago a long-time T206 collector reported of a Lajoie (with bat) card with a black LENOX
back. Therefore, In my opinion the "jury is still out" on that one.


This latest disclaimer regarding the Cobb (bat off shoulder) / black LENOX is from a very reputable long-time collector in the hobby. I have not
seen such a Cobb front / back combo, so I cannot refute his claim.

And that's why I posted this, hoping that with all the "T206 power" we have on this forum, someone here can confirm this Cobb / black LENOX,
or whatever ?



TED Z
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, I'm aware of that Lajoie situation. However, years ago a long-time T206 collector reported of a Lajoie (with bat) card with a black LENOX
back. Therefore, In my opinion the "jury is still out" on that one.


This latest disclaimer regarding the Cobb (bat off shoulder) / black LENOX is from a very reputable long-time collector in the hobby. I have not
seen such a Cobb front / back combo, so I cannot refute his claim.

And that's why I posted this, hoping that with all the "T206 power" we have on this forum, someone here can confirm this Cobb / black LENOX,
or whatever ?



TED Z
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Ted,

I'm trying to avoid confusion about this card.
In this thread you list the Lajoie (with bat) card as confirmed with a black Lenox but in the other Lenox thread you have it listed as unconfirmed with a black Lenox.

[tedzan]

Pat

There exists an ambiguity regarding both Lajoie (bat) and Cobb (bat off shoulder) with black LENOX backs.

I tend to agree that the Lajoie most likely was never printed with a black LENOX back. But, I would not wager my two barns on this being true.

On the other hand, the Cobb is reported on some T206 websites as confirmed with the black LENOX back. Since 1980 when I started collecting
T206's, I have never seen this front/back combo. Furthermore, at least a dozen long-time T206 collectors have told me...."they have not seen
this Cobb with a black LENOX back".

I'm asking you....have you seen a Cobb/black LENOX card (or know of one) ?


TED Z
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[rebelsart]

Hello Ted,
I believe this T206 Ty Cobb (bat off) has the Black Lenox back. I know of two that have Brown Lenox backs.
Art

[Sean]

ART! Of course you would be the one to solve this mystery.

I hope that is your card.