Here Is the Place, if any on this forum, for Gun Discussion

[tschock]

Getting back to the original question:

Why does anyone need to own an assault rifle?

There is a simple answer for that, which is the foundation for the second amendment. To assist in the overthrow of a tyrannical government should it become necessary. What more of a reason does one need?

[Topps206]

Except one could argue we have had tyrannical governments and nothing has happened.

This is what the pro gun people want. Fear, fear and more fear. It's propaganda and there's many people with this country with a sickening bloodlust. The First Amendment has its limits, don't see why the Second shouldn't.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Except one could argue we have had tyrannical governments and nothing has happened.

One could, but it would be a silly argument. Equating what "could" happen with what "should" or "should not" happen.

Originally Posted by Topps206

This is what the pro gun people want. Fear, fear and more fear.

Are you talking pro-gun or anti-gun here? Seems "fear, fear, and more fear" are being preached by the gun regulators.

Originally Posted by Topps206

It's propaganda and there's many people with this country with a sickening bloodlust.

Emotional rhetoric much? So let me try. 'It's propaganda and there's many people with this country who would trade their freedom for security within a nanny state.'

Originally Posted by Topps206

The First Amendment has its limits, don't see why the Second shouldn't.

Exactly. But those First Amendment limits are on the ACTION, aren't they? So shouldn't the same limits apply to the Second Amendment?

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by tschock

One could, but it would be a silly argument. Equating what "could" happen with what "should" or "should not" happen.



Are you talking pro-gun or anti-gun here? Seems "fear, fear, and more fear" are being preached by the gun regulators.



Emotional rhetoric much? So let me try. 'It's propaganda and there's many people with this country who would trade their freedom for security within a nanny state.'



Exactly. But those First Amendment limits are on the ACTION, aren't they? So shouldn't the same limits apply to the Second Amendment?

From what I see, there's more fear from the pro gun crowd than than the anti-gun crowd.

People talk about government tyranny. Well...

John Adams: Alien and Sedition Act
Abraham Lincoln: Suspension of Habeas Corpus
Woodrow Wilson: Sedition Act of 1918
FDR: Can be considered a tyrant if you look at the Japanese internments.
George W. Bush: The left considered him a tyrant
Barack Obama: The right considers him a tyrant

Plus there's the espousing of the term judicial tyranny ever since the Obergefell/Hodges decision. Don't forget about the wiretapping and NSA spying.

There's talk of government tyranny as the reason for assault weapons. Yet there's been a lot of tyrannical behavior from our country's leaders the past 240 years. How many overthrows or uprisings were there?

You can hate me, you can call me despicable names and you can wish awful things on me, but I am anti-gun and that's not a stance I plan on changing.

[SAllen2556]

Fear does indeed drive the pro-gun crowd.

Fear of history repeating itself - take away the guns to more easily control the populous, as has happened throughout history. I would remind you that most people throughout history have not lived in freedom. The US is very unique.

Fear of the slippery slope. Ban assault rifles and what's next? The anti-gun crowd will not be satisfied with just a ban on assault rifles, they never have.

Fear of the Left who, inadvertently, limit freedom through attempts at doing what's best for all: health care, taxes, business regulations, education, welfare, and hell, even school lunches.

You can't legislate against evil. I hold no ill will toward the do-gooders, but they're terribly misguided in believing that they'll ever prevent evil from occurring. Assault weapons exist - the technology is here. You can't eliminate them any more than you can eliminate abortion or drugs.

We make people take classes and pass tests before they get behind the wheel of a car, maybe we can beef up the tests, I don't know. Better technology on the guns perhaps? Some way to prevent anyone but the owner of the gun from being able to use it?

I'm much more interested in the psychology of these people. What's in their heads? How did they become so screwed up? How do we find these people before they commit these evil acts?

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Fear does indeed drive the pro-gun crowd.

Fear of history repeating itself - take away the guns to more easily control the populous, as has happened throughout history. I would remind you that most people throughout history have not lived in freedom. The US is very unique.

Fear of the slippery slope. Ban assault rifles and what's next? The anti-gun crowd will not be satisfied with just a ban on assault rifles, they never have.

Fear of the Left who, inadvertently, limit freedom through attempts at doing what's best for all: health care, taxes, business regulations, education, welfare, and hell, even school lunches.

You can't legislate against evil. I hold no ill will toward the do-gooders, but they're terribly misguided in believing that they'll ever prevent evil from occurring. Assault weapons exist - the technology is here. You can't eliminate them any more than you can eliminate abortion or drugs.

We make people take classes and pass tests before they get behind the wheel of a car, maybe we can beef up the tests, I don't know. Better technology on the guns perhaps? Some way to prevent anyone but the owner of the gun from being able to use it?

I'm much more interested in the psychology of these people. What's in their heads? How did they become so screwed up? How do we find these people before they commit these evil acts?

Something has to change. You cannot keep things the way they are. Gun sales might spike, but they're not a deterrent, just like capital punishment doesn't stop murder in red states.

I feel that the notion of freedom in the United States is merely a mirage. If American supported freedom, they'd find alternative energy sources and not rely on Saudi Arabia, which has suppressed the freedoms of its citizens and committed numerous atrocities in human history. If we were for freedom, we didn't show it when we intervened in Latin American countries, ousted their leaders and supported dictators because it would help our own interests.

The right wants to lecture me on the Constitution, on the Second Amendment, well, allow me to lecture them on other aspects of Constitutional law.

.The religious freedom clause applies to people of all faiths, not just Christians. You have no legal or moral jurisdiction to ban Islam and to profile Muslims in this country.

.There is a separation of church and state in our Constitution. Those words verbatim are not mentioned, but it is implied. The freedom to practice any religion, or none at all. One cannot encroach on the other.

.Conservatives love the Constitution so much that they have discussed repealing the 14th amendment.

.Also repealing the 16th.

.Also repealing the 17th.

.No religious test shall be administered for office, yet it is on the books in certain state constitutions that an atheist like myself cannot run for office. Thankfully, I don't live in any of these states.

.Christianity is not established in our Constitution as a national religion, nor is this a Christian nation. There are more Christians here than any other faith, but it's not the official religion despite recent data indicating that conservatives are willing to scrap the First Amendment and turn this into a theocratic regime.

I understand that my anti-gun position is not popular with many. My point is that people on the right bring up the Second Amendment, yet they pick and they choose which parts of the Constitution they like to suit their narrative. They claim to love freedom, they claim to love the Constitution, yet I notice inconsistencies on their end.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Topps206

My point is that people on the right bring up the Second Amendment, yet they pick and they choose which parts of the Constitution they like to suit their narrative. They claim to love freedom, they claim to love the Constitution, yet I notice inconsistencies on their end.

Yes, they do. And thanks for proving your own point.

And FWIW, you have no idea on my position on the other items you're referring to. But please infer all you like.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Topps206

...nor is this a Christian nation.

Wow, your ignorance is appalling. If this isn't a Christian nation, then why is Christmas, a national holiday? What other religion has a day recognized as a national holiday? Just because you may choose not to celebrate Christmas, doesn't negate the fact our founding fathers declared it a federal holiday.

You talk about fear from the right, but the left has people so scared of the political correctness BS, that many people have even stopped saying Merry Christmas or have changed the name form Christmas to Holiday - Holiday Tree, Holiday Lights, Holiday Party.

No, it's Christmas, set aside for Christ. Again, you have the choice to celebrate it or not. There is no mandate to celebrate it, just as there is no mandate to pop fireworks on Independence Day. But to say this isn't a Christian nation when we have a federal holiday set aside for Christ is ignorant.

I didn't mean to get off topic, but when I see stupid crap I have to respond. Carry on with the gun talk.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Topps206

You can hate me, you can call me despicable names and you can wish awful things on me, but I am anti-gun and that's not a stance I plan on changing.

And that about sums it up, doesn't it? Open minded to a fault.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by tschock

And that about sums it up, doesn't it? Open minded to a fault.

Are you open minded on my view at all?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Are you open minded on my view at all?

I'm quite open minded, otherwise I wouldn't have the views I have today. However the arguments for gun control are general not based in logic or human nature. Rather they seem to be more based on someone using one of their 3 wishes to wish for the genie back into the bottle.

As your views on conservatives were gross generalizations (and weren't directed at me), I will just leave you with one of mine. I find many self-proclaimed 'liberals' to be not at all liberal, but rather some of the most closed-minded people on the planet. One need only look to college campuses to see those with other views being shouted down rather than letting opposing views be heard. As hard headed as conservatives are, they will generally let opposing views be heard. To be clear, I am NOT referring to you but rather making a general observation.

Just one minor nit on religious freedom. That is specific to the FEDERAL level, but the states were not prohibited from establishing religious laws at a STATE level, and some did. Maryland for example gave deference to Catholics, and a number of other states for other religions (of which I can't remember specifics off-hand). And many states still have those types of laws on the books, though now being antiquated and not enforced. You're still not allowed to beat your mule on a Sunday in certain states.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by tschock

One could, but it would be a silly argument. Equating what "could" happen with what "should" or "should not" happen.



Are you talking pro-gun or anti-gun here? Seems "fear, fear, and more fear" are being preached by the gun regulators.



Emotional rhetoric much? So let me try. 'It's propaganda and there's many people with this country who would trade their freedom for security within a nanny state.'



Exactly. But those First Amendment limits are on the ACTION, aren't they? So shouldn't the same limits apply to the Second Amendment?

most gun people sound like this to me...delusional, paranoid, and hard-headed. and they want more guns, kinda scary!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

most gun people sound like this to me...delusional, paranoid, and hard-headed. and they want more guns, kinda scary!

Sounds like the anti-gun crowd to me. An example?

"You can hate me, you can call me despicable names and you can wish awful things on me, but I am anti-gun and that's not a stance I plan on changing."

Nothing delusional, paranoid, or hard-headed there.